Sales Methodologies

In this continued “honeymoon” edition of the Market Dominance Guys, ​our host, ​Corey​ Frank,​ sits down with Brad Ferguson of Sandler​ Training, one of the most highly rated sales trainers on the planet. Brad, being a top franchisee of Sandler for years, personally learned his incredible questioning techniques and prospect approaches from the founder of Sandler himself, David Sandler, more than 30 years ago. On several of the Market Dominance Guys​'​ podcasts over the years, Chris​ Beall​ and Corey have discussed many of the modern and fresh sales methodologies being used by successful sales professionals all over the world. From Oren Klaff’s “Pitch Anything” to Andy Paul’s “Sell Without Selling Out” to Chris Voss’ “Never Split The Difference,” there are many different flavors of sales methodologies that can be used to generate trust that result in more consistent sales success.  If you’re a pilot, you file a solid flight plan and know where you are going before you start the engines. You may change course due to bumpy weather, but you still know your final destination. If you are an architect, you know what type of building you are constructing. You have a blueprint. But if you are in ​s​ales today and you are still “winging it” and letting your personality alone dictate how your sales conversations progress, you fall into the trap of being labeled a “mere tourist” and continuing to wander inconsistently in this profession. As Uncle Zig once said, “Selling is the highest-paid hard work and the lowest-paid easy work there is.” Using a sales methodology makes the hard work easier.  In this episode, have your pen and pad ready as Brad shares several tactical and specific use cases where the Sandler methodology can be employed on your calls today. He discusses many traditional “mental hang-ups” and speed bumps that impede success from an emotional point of view. From being uncomfortable about money to having a high need for approval and an aversion to the word “no,” Brad shares just some of the powerful Sandler techniques that have generated hundreds of millions of dollars in closed deals. This is the Market Dominance Guys' nearly indispensable podcast, and today’s episode is entitled, “If I ​Could ​S​how ​You a ​W​ay.”   About Our GuestBrad Ferguson is the CEO of Best Sales Force, Inc., an Arizona-based sales development firm. Heis the Senior Sandler Training Franchisee with over 25 years of experience in the SandlerNetwork.

“When you go to a doctor, do you want that doctor to be excellent — or okay?” Elena Hesse, our Market Dominance Guys’ guest and the Vice President of Operations of Thomson Reuters’ tax and accounting professionals, poses this question to our podcast hosts, Corey Frank and Chris Beall. Their answer — and yours too, no doubt — is that they want doctors who love their job and do it extremely well. Elena, Chris, and Corey talk about how this equates to the role of the salesperson. In the old days, sales was generally a “hit and run” affair. You’d probably never see your customers again once the sale was made, so there was little reason to provide true value in a product or to develop and maintain a relationship with a customer. But in the modern world, most of us want to sell our customers an upgrade or an add-on or a renewal. So, product value and excellent customer relations are essential. In other words, if you want to be successful in sales today, our three sales experts say that it’s crucial to have skin in the game. Oh, yeh. It’s self-examination time. Evaluate your personal investment in your job as you listen to today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode. “Do You Have Skin in the Game?”   About Our Guest Elena T. Hesse, Vice President, Operations – Tax & Accounting Professionals at Thomson Reuters, has been with this firm for more than 13 years. Elena is also a thought leader for #GirlsClub, leading the book club discussions to support #GirlsClub and its continuing work of changing the face of sales leadership by empowering more women to earn roles in management. Full episode transcript below: Corey Frank (01:46): Elena, one last question for you, maybe a good plug for what we were talking about here towards the end about empowering women leadership, particularly in sales and tech, which you're at the heart of certainly at Thomson. You have a book club, The No Time to Read Book Club. Maybe you can end this with a little plug for the book club, and what you do, and maybe some of the learnings over the years leading that? Elena Hesse (02:05): Absolutely. One, the reason that the book club even exists, in a way, is because of Chris Beall. Because Chris, you told Lauren Bailey about me, and she reached out to me for Girls Club, so that all happened. Elena Hesse (02:22): So, in the Girls Club organization, which I'm a part of as a thought leader, Lauren and Angela, there's so many great people there, we have this book club. We do it for each cohort. I think this is our third or fourth year. What I really love about the book club is that it's really a time for women. Sometimes there are men too, so this is not just a one gender conversation. Elena Hesse (02:49): The first book I pick, the next two, they pick. It tells you where their heads are. Where are they looking for help? Where do they want some insights? And we just talk. We read the book. Sometimes they don't read the book. I'll be honest with you, there's a reason for the title. It's hard to squeeze in book reading sometimes. Elena Hesse (03:08): A lot of the women in Girls Club, if I were making a general statement, I would say are women with families. A lot of times you got young kids. Time's precious, so we don't use that as a filter, if you will. So, we have a book club in which reading the book is not necessarily needed, because I always read the book. Elena Hesse (03:26): There's always some people that read the book, and we just go through the highlights, and share our personal stories as they relate to the books. I don't know if it's any more magical than that, Corey. It's really people coming together to say, "Never thought about that," or "This how I reacted to it." When you're sharing your life nuggets, you don't know when it's going to matter to somebody. Elena Hesse (03:48): I will make a point to our conversation and how it all started, Chris. You flatter me and humble me with remembering a statement that I made many years ago, frankly that I would never have been able to repeat back to you if you asked me, do you remember what you said? I would not have been able to, right? Elena Hesse (04:07): You never know when the teacher arrives. The student has to be ready. I'm not saying you're a student in that respect, but you never know when something's going to resonate. You never know. So, anytime you can bring people together with some level of continuity to the conversation, a book, that's just a vehicle for a conversation. Elena Hesse (04:28): A good book club, that is just the muse. You could go in lots of different directions and learn about each other, and walk away with something that no one would've thought that one little something would've mattered. Elena Hesse (04:41): So, I like to have spontaneous interesting conversations because I never know what I'm going to learn something. God knows I never could have repeated back that quote you told me. I'm very happy that I gave you something that meant something, obviously. I bet you we all have things that resonated with us and the person who delivered it had no idea what they were delivered to you. Corey Frank (05:01): Well, Elena, we have almost 200 episodes of this podcast stemming from my purely selfish desire to get inside the head of Chris Beall, so welcome to the club. I think that's a beautiful way to end this episode, especially since you're almost going to make Chris cry again. Chris Beall (05:16): It's working, it's working. Elena Hesse (05:18): You are not crying, don't tell me that. Are you? Chris Beall (05:23): I am, but I won't even hide it very well. Yes, Corey knows me well. The fact is, we all have so much to learn from each other. The essence of curiosity is embracing our ignorance. Elena Hesse (05:35): Yes, yes. Chris Beall (05:36): Really being enthusiastic about our ignorance. I love being ignorant. It's my favorite thing in the world. Whenever I think I know something, it makes me nervous. Elena Hesse (05:46): Yeah. Like, do you really know it? You've got to be vulnerable to that. I'll be in conversations, and if someone says a word that I don't know, I will say, "Stop, please. Can you tell me that means? Because I don't know what you're saying right now." I'm sure I've looked really ridiculous, but I don't care. Corey Frank (06:03): No, just the opposite, Elena. I think that's endearing. I think that for somebody who understands the courage it takes, especially at a manager or director, vice president C-level, to stop and ask a question like that? Hey, an acronym you'd use. Especially in sales, we throw around these all the time. Elena Hesse (06:19): Gosh, yeah. Corey Frank (06:20): I think, to me, there's got to be some Chris Voss, Candyland shortcut, that really engenders trust very, very quickly, like a shortcut if you say, "Stop, what does that mean? I don't understand that". We could you feel the burden on you and the trust part just catalyzes from there. Elena Hesse (06:40): Because typically people are saying things that are important, and you want to have the same vocabulary or knowledge so you can move faster, kind of back to our original statements. Chris Beall (06:49): Yeah. Well, everybody's an expert on thousands, millions of things, in fact. We just don't know what they are until we have a conversation. We have a little tagline at ConnectAndSell, and I've had branding people talk to me about, "Why don't you change that and make it fresher?" Conversations matter. Chris Beall (07:06): It's not that they matter for selling, they just matter. We just can't figure stuff out on our own, because our own experiences take us inside our own experiences. We need to be inside of other people's experiences in order to be able to gain access to what they're an expert at. Chris Beall (07:28): Everybody's an expert at millions of things. It's not limited. You think of how long a life is, think about all the years. Years? Try milliseconds. We learn stuff hundreds of times a second. We can't really share it with anybody unless we have a conversation. You have to have that high velocity, 20,000 bits a second, right into the mid brain. Then we have a shot. Elena Hesse (07:53): Yeah, and let's absorb it, and be brave enough to maybe change a position if you hear something that makes sense. Don't get too buried in your own belief. Pick your values. But what I believe in, because I'm using those very differently, it could change a little bit because your experience has showed me something I never saw before. Elena Hesse (08:15): Now, that's why I think ... I'm not going to get political, I promise. But just generally ... both sides of the aisle, once you pick a position, you got to stay consistent or else you're not considered credible. I want a leader who takes it all in, and makes decisions that are right, not just following a pattern of an echo chamber. So, it's okay to say you're wrong. Corey Frank (08:41): Oftentimes. Chris Beall (08:42): Well, Corey's wrong all the time, so. Corey Frank (08:44): Yeah, just ask my wife. Right, exactly. Chris Beall (08:48): ... Into little diamonds. Elena Hesse (08:52): Sure. Chris Beall (08:52): This was the best conversation I've had in a long, long time. Corey Frank (08:54): Oh yeah. Elena Hesse (08:54): You're sweet. You guys are very flattering. I don't know if you do this for everybody else, but you make people feel good to participate. I was very happy to do so. I've learned things. I've jotted down books and movies. Corey Frank (09:09): Yeah. Chris Beall (09:09): I keep thinking of Little China. Go watch that one, that's a good movie. Corey Frank (09:12): Yeah. My wife knows there's no such thing as a quick conversation with Chris because it's so tangential. You talk about a lot, about a lot of things. Corey Frank (09:22): I've known Chris for a long time. I've never heard the primates example, but this is a guy that reads scientific journals for fun all the time. It's the Jiro thing. Jiro the movie, he dreams of sushi because he's such a craftsman that is so entrenched. As they say, "By the work, they shall know the workman." Elena Hesse (09:45): Yeah. Corey Frank (09:45): So, he's dreaming of sushi. You're like, "Come on, it's just fish. It's a meal. Can't you go drive through somewhere, or go to one of those things in Japan where they go around and grab the sushi?" Corey Frank (09:54): It's like, no, you're missing the point. "Well, can't I dial and talk to people? Can't I just email? Isn't it the same." It's going to take a little bit longer, but come on. You're missing the art, and the honor, and the dignity of the profession. Elena Hesse (10:06): Yeah, I love those last few things you just said, the art, and the honor, and the dignity of our profession. Chris Beall (10:14): I think we would do well to spend more time with our sales teams on these topics. Elena Hesse (10:23): Yeah. Chris Beall (10:24): People will say, "Well, sales is an honorable profession," all that kind of stuff. I don't think most people selling in the innovation economy even get what they're doing, why they're so important. Chris Beall (11:29): We tend to, I think sadly, by leaving the coin operated comp plans in place, we actually insult our salespeople by saying ... This is a Japanese thing. I spent a lot of time in Japan at one point in my life doing a big joint venture with Mitsui, so dealing with board level people there. They're very happy to let you be yourself, but if you're open, they're happy to teach you about what it's like to be them, which is really kind of interesting. Chris Beall (12:02): The thing that characterized Japanese society more than anything else was that it's insulting to tip somebody, and yet we pay our sales people by tipping them. The commission is a tip, right? The implication in Japan, the thing that's so insulting, is you're saying to them, "I don't believe you would've done your job with excellence unless I gave you this additional financial incentive." Chris Beall (12:30): That's an absolute insult to a Japanese person to say, "You did it for the money." You went the extra mile not because of who you are and your commitment to the excellence of what you're doing and the joy of serving somebody. You did it because you're trying to get 20% instead of 18%. It's the deepest insult. Chris Beall (12:53): I think that we have a hangover in our society from sales at the crossroads where a commission would make sense. Because basically I trick you into buying and I should be rewarded for it. That's kind of what it was. Chris Beall (13:08): Now, here we are, we're actually in partnership with people we have not yet met. That's the essence of the modern sales person, is your tribe includes people you have not yet met that you're going to help, that you're going to be curious about, and you're going to help. Yet we base our compensation schemes on the notion that you wouldn't really do it unless there was something in it for you. Elena Hesse (13:31): So, I'm curious. I will say this, when I first started in sales and probably the reason that I was willing to go into a sales position, because I'm a CPA, so that part of my brain was like, "What? commissions?" I don't want to put anything at risk. Elena Hesse (13:47): But when I started at Creative Solutions, they did not have commissions. It was straight salary, there was no anything. But kind of to your point, we looked at reports all the time to see who was selling the most. That was driving behavior, but it wasn't paying based on that behavior. Elena Hesse (14:07): So, my question to you Chris, since you've had a lot of exposure here, how do the Japanese companies pay their sales reps? Is it strictly a salary? Is there no differentiation for excellence? They just don't use money for that? What do you see? Chris Beall (14:22): Well, in their sales world, God knows what they do. I never got into that. That was not part of what I was ... It's funny, I never felt in these long relationships that we were putting together that anybody was working me for a commission. I never felt that, not even for a minute. Chris Beall (14:40): I never also felt, I have no instances to counter this, that a handshake wasn't as good as a contract. Never, not once. There was no like, "Here's a word here. We could do this," or whatever. You didn't do deals other than on an achievement of mutual understanding of what you were going to do next. That was the deal itself. There was no other deal. I don't know if I recognize these people- Elena Hesse (15:06): A lot of trust. Chris Beall (15:07): ... but I do know that every time I would go to leave Narita Airport in Tokyo, there's a yellow line that you cross and you're no longer in Japan when you cross that line. I would stop at that line. Elena Hesse (15:27): And like have [inaudible 00:15:29]? Chris Beall (15:29): I would stop, because I felt like I was leaving civilization. We have examples there. We don't need to have this corrupting system, where I have to grease your palm a little bit before you'll carry my suitcase. We don't have that everywhere. We have salaried positions. We trust our engineers to work without tipping them for a line of code, or giving a commission. Chris Beall (15:52): Can you imagine? "You wrote 26 lines of code today, $55, yay." No, we would actually be concerned, like "Oh my God, this stuff's got to work. That could be sloppy." I want it to be right. What do they get? They get their stock options, and they get their opportunity for promotion, and they get their career, which is actually worth more than all that put together. Chris Beall (16:13): You get your reputation, you get your career, you get the fact that you can walk out the door without taking a single step. You get all of that. I think we still have got a cultural hangover. We got untrapped from the office, and we can now choose to use the office. But we've never gotten untrapped from the coin-operated notion of a salesperson. Elena Hesse (16:36): It's a very distracting part of the business, because if you don't have the coin-operated machine well oiled, highly tuned, with all the variations, it's like a pinball machine, as I pull it back, I'm trying to hit as many things as I possibly can. If I hit them and didn't get paid, now my focus as a salesperson is, "System's not working. How much do I need to get paid?" I'm in the back of my mind, at the very least. That's distracting me from my relationships. Corey Frank (17:10): Well, the social contract, they're going to feel is broken. Elena Hesse (17:14): Exactly. Corey Frank (17:15): "You hired me, and you're going to spend all this money on all these MarTech back tools. I follow your playbook, I should have six figures, and I should hit my quota." When I don't, it's tough to look introspectively, I've got to look at probably the leads, my boss, my manager, my comp plan, my commute, whatever it is that's natural. Corey Frank (17:37): Actually, in the movie, in Jiro they talk about that other concept we've heard, Kaizen, that continuous improvement, that main kind of principle. But the piece that they talk about in Jiro, [foreign language 00:17:48], a incredible book from the 17th Century about the Samurai way and the Japanese. They call it ikigai. It's finding one's central satisfaction and meaning in life. It's the reason for being. Elena Hesse (18:02): For your personal reason for being? Corey Frank (18:05): Your own personal reason for being. That's one of the Japanese philosophies that they have, is that it describes your value and your own worth, to you. It's your life, and your purpose. When you, like Chris, you go around Tokyo, the cabs are impeccably cleaned. They're like 1986 Maximas. The cab drivers are impeccably dressed and they wear white gloves. Elena Hesse (18:29): Wow. Corey Frank (18:31): They're beautiful. Chris Beall (18:31): And they smell good, the cabs smell good, they smell great. They all smell the same, they all smell great. Corey Frank (18:37): I think that pride starts at home. That pride of ... If I cared about my title, I'd be a banker. But if I'm a salesperson, the only thing I have to show, I can't have really my title, I got to have my stuff, my currency, which is [inaudible 00:18:52]. Elena Hesse (18:51): Yeah. I never thought about it that way, but yeah. Corey Frank (18:54): Other currency, which is learning, curiosity, being supportive, group, et cetera. But anyway. Chris Beall (19:00): I think the lock-in comes from the market. We pay our salespeople commission because the lock-in comes from the market. The lock-in to the office came from the market, and then the market blew up because it turned out it was better to work from home than to die. But that's what it took. It actually took- Elena Hesse (19:18): A pandemic. Chris Beall (19:19): "Otherwise we're going to die." The fact that we commuted for an insane amount of ... Truly, if you just think about it, we did an episode on this, the hundreds of billions of dollars in the hours spent just commuting makes no sense, once you figured out how to do something remotely. Chris Beall (19:39): You can't go back and find them and go, "We were so good when we were together, that it was worth two things." One is all the commuting, and two is having our entire talent pool be within 50 miles of us instead of everybody on earth. Those things were incredibly valuable. They weren't incredibly valuable, they were locked in. Elena Hesse (19:56): So, I have a point. I know you got to leave in a minute and I'm going to respect that. But I will say this onto return to work. I believe in everything you just said. There's a lot of was in commuting. However, I can't accidentally bump into anyone on a video call. I can't do it. Elena Hesse (20:16): My learnings come from accidentally bumping into the world I live in. If I'm not at least coming into a central place where other people that I want to bump into are there periodically, I'm talking about hybrid, like two days a week, then I lose. The company loses. But it's a really hard message to get across to people who are so used to now working from home all the time. Because it's hard to argue your productivity comment. I am probably more productive- Chris Beall (20:43): Or the rest of your life. It's like, who are you working for? Are you working for the man, so to speak? By the way, my one minute may come here. Chris Beall (20:53): I think what we're going to see on this topic is we're going to see the market play out. The market is now for top talent. The top talent is simply, they're going to call the game. The rest of us who hire top talent, we're in the thrall of those people. They are our customers, and that's it. Chris Beall (21:16): It's not a very subtle game at this point. It's simply, what do they want? If they want to bump into people, well, maybe they'll bump into people. Here's where I think they'll end up going. Corey knows I'm a mathematician by background, and that I've never lost that hideous nature. The math says that we should get together, but less frequently and more intensely. Chris Beall (21:38): So, where the conferences used to be to meet customers, we will start having conferences to be with each other, and to actually take that time truly away from other things, and not just bump into each other, but bump into each other with a little intentionality, but still bump into each other. Chris Beall (21:58): The other flip is, when you do that, it's like opening a digital relationship with a conversation. When you get together, immediately, and I do mean immediately and I've charted this stuff, you start interacting differently with the people you were just with physically when you're texting them, so it's a catalyst for that future. Chris Beall (22:21): But two days a week, I think, might be a little much. But two days a month all getting together, maybe not at the office but somewhere else where ... Because the flights are cheap. The hotel venues or whatever, conference venues, are cheap. When people get away, they focus with each other, and you can have fun. Fun is the other thing. People got to have fun together. Elena Hesse (22:48): Yeah. I think your point is right on, and I think that's one of the reasons that we successfully lifted and shifted in COVID, is because we already had the tapestry of trust within physical contact with my team. Then we were able to go and continue that. Elena Hesse (23:05): The problem is, as we were hiring people remotely, we don't have that physical connection, that meeting up with each other. I don't know the 100% remote people as well. I just don't. We got to create situations. We can talk all day. Chris Beall (23:21): I'll make one more point. You have a 20,000-bit-per-second channel into somebody's mid-brain in a conversation, and I don't think we pick up the phone enough. I talked for 42 minutes this morning with one of my reps, that I had no reason whatsoever to speak with when I woke up this morning. Chris Beall (23:38): Mark and I now have got this 42 minutes. That's 42 minutes, times 60 seconds a minute, times 20,000 bits of emotion-laden information even though we don't think of it that way. What were we talking about? Friction in our sales process. We were getting down into the nuances of, "If you do it in this order, there's friction. But this order, there's no friction. So, are you willing to try it in this order instead of the traditional order?" Chris Beall (24:07): It was bumping into each other. Why? Because there was a conversation, that somebody who sets meetings for me, had with somebody that Mark's going to do a test drive with. I wanted those two to talk in a debriefed sense. So, I sent a text to both of them. Then mark said, "You sent me a text," and he called me, and we bumped into each other. Elena Hesse (24:28): That's great. Chris Beall (24:29): The key, I think, is to get away from the damned email and thinking that you're communicating when you're sending email, because you aren't. Elena Hesse (24:39): Yeah. That's one of the reasons I like Teams Chat. It's the closest thing to bumping into somebody I can do, because I can spontaneously say, "Do you got two minutes, because I need to pick your brain." Chris Beall (24:53): Yeah. Well, Helen sells that stuff, so I'll tell you how much value. That's Teams Chat. Chris Beall (24:59): By the way, I've been listening conversations at Microsoft about what they want their customers to do, because she's now customer success. The only word I heard yesterday, and I heard it over and over, is phone, which is really, really interesting. Chris Beall (25:14): She has people working for her in customer success who actually are spontaneously asking, "Can we do some cold calling? I want to talk to people outside of the IT people we're talking with." Elena Hesse (25:25): That's awesome. Chris Beall (25:26): Customer success is the new sales, and thank God we don't pay them commissions. That's where I'm going to end this. Elena, I tell you what, next chance we have, let's get together somewhere. Elena Hesse (25:39): Yes. Chris Beall (25:41): This was a great get together though. Elena Hesse (25:43): Yeah, this was awesome. I very much appreciate it. Nice to meet you Corey, and nice to get to know you more, Chris Beall. Congratulations on your upcoming wedding. Chris Beall (25:51): Thank you. Elena Hesse (25:52): Helen sounds fantastic, if she could have captured the heart and the mind of Chris. Chris Beall (25:58): She wins. No, I win. I'm the lucky one. Elena Hesse (26:01): Oh, you're sweet. Chris Beall (26:02): I'm just a lucky old beast. Corey calls himself a big dumb farm animal. I'm just a lucky beast that wandered into the right corral. Corey Frank (26:09): Well, Elena, it's been a absolute pleasure. Thank you for finally saying yes to this, which I'm sure was Chris's frequent torments to you to "Come on the show, come on the show." So, thank you for finally saying yes. Corey Frank (26:21): So, another episode in the books, Chris, with one of the best yet, with one of the brightest yet. So, with Cory Frank coming in for our Chris Beall, the Sage of Sales, the profit of profit. Elena, you're now the Curator of Curiosity, how about that? Elena Hesse (26:34): I'll take it. Corey Frank (26:36): We [inaudible 00:26:37] in the title, it looks great. Chris Beall (26:37): I love it. Corey Frank (26:38): Until next time, this is the Market Dominance Guys.  

What’s a pattern interrupt? And how can it help you break down the resistance most people feel when ambushed by a cold call? Donny Crawford, Director of Conversation Optimization at ConnectAndSell, joins our Market Dominance Guy, ConnectAndSell CEO Chris Beall, on a Selling Power webinar hosted by Founder Gerhard Gschwandtner. These three conversation experts share some little-known tricks of the cold-calling trade, one of which is that saying something unexpected, like “Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?”, can break a prospect’s usual pattern of hanging up or refusing to engage. As Donny says, it truly is a game-changer, especially when said in a friendly, playful voice. “The friendliness actually matters,” he explains. “You’ve got to be assertive enough, but in a friendly manner.” Get ready to absorb this and other helpful tips from ConnectAndSell’s Flight School cold-calling training lessons in this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Pattern Interrupts Are Your Friend.”   About Our Guest Donny Crawford is Director of Conversation Optimization at ConnectAndSell. With the expertise developed as a former customer and as Customer Success Manager at ConnectAndSell, he operates as chief instructor of Flight School, a structured program designed to help cold callers find their voice. Hear more from Donny Crawford on his other Market Dominance Guys’ episodes.  Full episode transcript below: Gerhard Gerschwandtner (01:10): Name is Gerhard Gerschwandtner. I'm the founder and publisher of Selling Power magazine. Thank you for tuning in. Donny Crawford (01:16): And as long as we approach them with the sincerity that what we can provide and share and advise them on is something that could be beneficial to them. Well, then we're in a good state. So the five sentences, what I love about the breakthrough messaging framework or the ambush conversation framework is really that it's filled with pattern interrupts, things that sound a little weird. Why is that important? It's because it doesn't trigger psychological reactance or reflex responses like Jeb Blount talks about in his book Objections. He talks about reflex responses. People get a lot of cold calls and they built up this wall in front of them and they know how to reflexively response to salespeople. So you have to have quite a few little pattern interrupts that keep them a little on the edge of their seat while they're listening to you. Let's walk through those a little bit. So the first two sentences within this it's what's called a greeting. You just get right into the conversation, be upfront, be honest, be friendly, be casual. Hey, it's Chris Beall, CEO of ConnectAndSell. Hey, it's Donny over at ConnectAndSell, right? It's just very simple. I'm not hiding behind the fact that I want to keep elusive what company I'm with. I'm just coming straight out in front and letting you know where I'm at. And then I hit you with what's called a pattern interrupt and then upfront contract. So these are terms around the Sandler world. So you want to get them into a place where you acknowledge a truth. I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called? Now, there's a really important method of delivering this line. And it's with the use of two different voices. We actually spoke with Chris Voss about this. Chris Beall, you were at a mystery dinner with him. For some reason, you guys both picked out of a hat, the Batman, and you were sitting at a table together and you were able to corner Chris Voss and say, how do you get trust from someone? How much time does it take to get trust? And Chris Voss said, "You have seven seconds." And Chris is like, "Oh, that's interesting. Our research says eight seconds." And Chris Voss says with his FBI eyes, "Your research is wrong. It's seven seconds." And he is like, "Oh, okay." So Chris then asked the follow-up question. What do you need to do to get trust? And Chris Voss said, "That's the simple part. There's two things. You need to first establish that you see the world through that individual's eyes. You understand the circumstance they are in." This first piece of, I know I'm an interruption, it's not an apology. It's just an acknowledgement of truth. It's just an acceptance that I've interrupted your day. I understand that. And I'm going to state it clearly. I know I'm an interruption. And then Chris Voss said, "The second thing you need to do is you need to have a competent solution to the problem that they are facing. And when we accept the fact that we as cold callers, we who are ambushing people are the problem in a cold call, then we can have a simple solution to that problem. Hey, it's only going to take 27 seconds." But Chris Voss actually said something even more important. And what I really want to emphasize here is the use of our voice, how we come across with our voice actually matters. Chris Voss likes the term, the late night FM DJ voice. That's what you use for, I know I'm an interruption. Hey, listen. I know I'm an interruption. It's a confident, solid voice that someone can trust. And then you change your voice to what's called a playful curious voice. You let it go up a little bit. You might even add a little chuckle every single time I say it. I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called? I manufacture the chuckle. I could say it. I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called but that's bland. I'm a person. You're a person. I'm going to transfer energy to you. If I am energized, you'll be energized with me. I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called? And people usually with me, they say, "Sure, go for it." And they're smiling with me. They might even chuckle them and release a couple endorphins in the back of their mind. Now they're in a comfortable state. They trust me. Now it's my game to blow if I actually don't follow through on this. Once I have a little bit of trust with them and they say, "Sure, go ahead." Now we proceed to the next part. And this part is actually really important because this is why we're really excited to share something with them. This is why we've actually reached out to them is because I have this deep-seated belief in the thing that I have to share with someone. I have this sincerity, this belief, I'm an expert in something but more than important than that, I really do believe that we have something that is going to be able to make a difference for you and your role in your organization. And so when I say I believe, I'm not saying, I think we have something kind of cool here. Now I say, I believe I'm putting my reputation on the line. And I say, I believe we've discovered a breakthrough. We've discovered something. We just happen to be the lucky ones. And we have a breakthrough that is interesting enough that you should learn about it. That breakthrough has a couple different little components. They are value components but we're not talking about what we do, how we do it all, all the various value that we bring to an organization. We just hint at it. Our breakthrough addresses some economic challenges, provides an emotional security blanket, right? It gets rid of those frustrations, those annoyances in our personal and probably career lives. And then it also allows you to do strategic things you haven't been able to do. That's what your breakthrough does. And by the way, everyone has a breakthrough. You might not be landing on Mars, flying a helicopter, taking cool pictures or curing cancer but as long as you do something better, simpler, faster in a more improved way, you have a breakthrough. And why is it important to set stage by talking about this breakthrough? Because you have something you can promise to deliver to someone. If I say we have a breakthrough and you need to learn about it, that's what your discovery call is. It doesn't necessarily need to be you drilling them with questions but if you have something to share with them and something that actually goes through these things. Chris is going to talk about what that breakthrough actually can Intel, if you promise to deliver something, that's a breakthrough to them, then it's what elicits them being curious enough to take a meeting from us. The next couple lines are but the last piece. Gerhard Gerschwandtner (08:01): Before Chris, let me ask you a question. I'm curious, you make it all sound so smooth and so obvious and how to resonate with the customer in a positive way because you established a positive climate. The question I have is, how long does it take for salespeople to get to that point where they have that internal breakthrough, where they get it. And it's almost like an opera singer of finding the high seat. Donny Crawford (08:33): Does take practice. I'll tell you, it takes practice. The wonderful thing about, and Gerhard, I really like the question because it takes not just role-playing practice where you're speaking to a mirror, talking to a manager and doing it. You have to feel how the reactance you're getting from real-life people. And then it starts to click and get smooth. I would say that you can actually become very comfortable with this after about 30 conversations with people, 30 to 40 conversations. Gerhard Gerschwandtner (09:12): How long is it taking in the training school, in the Flight School, 30 minutes, an hour or? Donny Crawford (09:21): It probably equates to close to three to four hours of live conversations with people for you to. If you're sticking to it and you're really practicing it and you're really trying to deliver it, it's going to feel stiff at first. It's like you're reading it. But if you really have a go at it, understanding and embracing the reality of it and what you're trying to accomplish, you're selling an appointment, not your product right now. This type of breakthrough script can actually within probably 30, 40 conversations, you start to understand the nuances of how to deliver it effectively. Gerhard Gerschwandtner (09:57): It reminds me of a book that was written a long time ago by Constantine Stanislavsky. He wrote a book called An Actor Prepares and it is almost like a perfect training manual with salespeople because the book teaches actors how to step into the character, like in your case, that friendly, trustworthy, helping salesperson who wants to deliver value in any conversation. So it's not just about the words but in embodying that character of that helpful, a customer servant, it takes a lot of internalizing where you  search for memories as an actor in your life where you have been exposed to people like that. And then you embody those people and try to walk through those mental steps. So you have the right mindset and you need the right mindset to develop the right skillset. Donny Crawford (11:03): It does start with the mindset. It really does it. You have to have the excitement to be on these conversations. A lot of people are like, "Oh, it's a cold call. I'm just going to be stiff because it's a cold call. And they don't like me. And I don't like doing it." And they get that in their mind. And of a sudden that's going to mess with your energy. That's going to mess with your approach. It's more concerned about them being annoyed with me rather than being confident that I have the right plays in place for me to be stay on the offense on a conversation but keep it light and friendly because the friendliness actually matters. If I do care about someone, and I do believe that we have something that can help them. I am going to put the right amount of assertiveness to make sure that they like what Chris said. If you save someone from stepping off the curb because a bus is coming, you have to hit them in the chest so that they don't step off the curb. So you have to be assertive enough to guide them in the direction that's going to be beneficial for them to learn something but the reality is you can do it in a friendly manner, right? And so that friendly, assertive aspect of delivering this, it comes with practice, but it comes from interacting with people and realizing, wow, I do have the ability to make them react in certain ways. I do have the ability to influence them. Gerhard Gerschwandtner (12:32): I think there's another step that needs to be articulated that a lot of salespeople don't get it. I've trained 10,000 salespeople in Europe and in the United States. And I was always surprised how easy it is to teach good skills, providing you lead them to the first step, which is that they believe in themselves they can actually do it. So people need to give themselves permission to make a change, to make that click in their mind first, before they can integrate new skills into their repertoire. Donny Crawford (14:05): I love that. Chris Beall  (14:13): Yeah. I have something, an experience that speaks to this. So I used to be, as you know, Gerhard, a fairly serious rock climber mountaineer. And I've had the opportunity to teach a lot of people how to climb. And the key to learning how to climb is to recognize that your fear of heights is natural. It's not something to deny. It's not something to push aside. It's something to embrace and understand. I mean, it's good to be afraid of heights. Try falling sometime. As you know, I fell once about 800 feet, and I can tell you it would've been better not to. It's not something you would seek out. When I taught people to climb, the first thing to do is to teach them to trust that they're not going to fall and die or be hurt. So have them climb up one or two feet, step off, have the rope catch them. Do that over and over where they're still comfortable. And that's like Donny's 30 conversations, in a safe setting where somebody can coach you, have the experience of not having a bad thing happen when your reflexes say a bad thing's going to happen. And the click occurs when you forget about the fact that you're now at 10, 12 feet off the ground because you're so accustomed to falling onto the rope. And the rope basically feels like the ground to you. And that's the breakthrough moment when people are learning to climb, they have to go through that moment. And I think that happens in Flight School. I think there's a point usually between day two and day three, for most people, and it happens at night, by the way. These changes only occur within us when we're sleeping. We actually are not capable of changing in a fundamental way while we're awake. And that's why we dream. We go through all of these crazy things that we do at night, which if we take them away, we go nuts and we die, bad combination in that order, by the way. We very rarely die first and then go nuts. And so between session two and session three of Flight School and session two is where those previous couple of sentences are, sentence three, actually the breakthrough sentences. That's where it starts to feel like maybe something good is happening here but I'm not quite there. And then session three that day they wake up and they go with their usual apprehension but it clicks. And it's the click of having this work as advertised, so to speak, it's in the same way that the climber is up 12 feet. And for the first time they go to make a move. They can't make and they fall and nothing happens. It's okay. That's the moment that I think everything changes. And then the sales rep can now embrace the reality of the ambush conversation which is fear of being in the ambusher is fear of height. It's like fear of the sight of blood. You can't become a surgeon if you think that the site of blood. You can't in sales, you can't be successful unless you don't faint at the feel of ambushing somebody for their own good. But you can't declare that. And just say, I'm no longer going to faint at the sight of blood. You have to practice. You can't get over the fear of heights without practicing. You can't get over the fear of being the ambusher which is the person who's going to be exiled. By the way, the deep rooted source of our fear of being ambusher is people who do bad things to other people in the village get thrown out of the village. That's all there is to it. We fear excel much more than we fear death. And so it's worse than our fear of heights. So you're actually addressing your fear of being the bad thing. Gerhard Gerschwandtner (18:00): In the analogy with mountain climbing, I remember interviewing Ed McMahon from The Tonight Show and he was landing a plane that was literally on fire. He walked away from it and he said he was terrified. However, he learned through his military training, you can't transform fear into energy and the energy that somebody told him when he was on the radio, jump and bail and this is going to be a lost plane. And he says, "No, I want to land it. And I want to say that, I think we can fix it." So the lesson I learned is that there is an inner journey to optimal performance that is not clear to a lot of people. And I think, Donny, you hinted at that, that there is some experience that happens where all of a sudden everything changes and you turn fear into energy and that energy turns into greater performance. Donny Crawford (19:15): I agree. And it's interesting hearing the part of the benefits that can happen when you've embraced it. And you've made that change. You have to go through that process that Chris was talking about which is that initial fear and that initial fear, once you overcome it, it actually can transfer that fear to this great energy. There's several times in flight school when people are executing on a script and sometimes they just read it really blandly. They just, "Hi, it's Donny over ConnectAndSell. I know I'm an interruption." They're afraid to be saying it. "Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?" And someone's like, "Yeah, go for it." Great. I think we have a breakthrough here and they're really timid and they're not very energized. And then at the end, it's like, "The reason for the call is to see if I could get some time on your calendar. Do you have your calendar there?" And someone will say, "Yeah, I do." Just by reading the script and being horrible at delivering it. Some people are just like, "Yeah, that's fine. We could set up time." And then the rep is like, it doesn't have to be that difficult. It doesn't have to be something where I have as much energy as Donny is demonstrating I need to have it, but I just need to follow a certain path. There is security to the right type of path to take but then you're going to enhance that experience by really allowing yourself to let your personality shine. I think the best example of this is actually I ran a Flight School for a manufacturer of machinery that they sell to manufacturing plants and food processing plants and all this stuff. And their sales reps are individual sales reps that live in the area that they sell in. And they go door to door to these manufacturing plants, selling their equipment. And some of them are on the east coast and they have that east coast attitude and they got the sharpness to their voice and the speed and energy and aggressiveness. And then you have the salt of the earth in the middle of the United States sound from Kansas and they got all this personality and sound great. And then you got the Californians, they're all loose and hanging back and chill with the way they talk and super friendly or whatever it is. And what's amazing is they all say the same words in a script but they've allowed their own personality. They embrace their personality. And they're saying the same words, but they have the same effect on people. And so it's hilarious. Once you allow yourself to be yourself and allow people to get a sense of who you are and that you truly do have something really powerful for them, people are willing to listen at that point and they really are comfortable saying, "Yeah, I'd love to meet with you. You sound great. I love your energy." Whatever that type of energy is. Gerhard Gerschwandtner (22:07): It becomes a positive feedback loop because they see they get results with the new narrative, with the new script, with the new delivery, with the new need that is manifesting itself in a positive way. And then they want to do more. And then you create the addicts, the self actualizing. Donny Crawford (22:28): Talk about rock climbing. It's scary at first, but dang it. When you're at the top of the mountain and you just accomplish this very hard thing, the high you get from that, it's fun to execute little things well, but the high at the end when you've executed this hard thing and it actually you get a result. Holy crap, I'm hungry for that a lot. I need that over and over and over again. And so once you embrace the little tricky parts to get to that place, it's super rewarding moving forward. Gerhard Gerschwandtner (23:02): Donny, there's a book I want to recommend. It's by Josh Waitzkin, it's called The Art of Learning and it actually has the subtitle on inner journey to optimal performance. And Josh Waitzkin was the junior chess champion in the US at the age 16 or 17. And he actually was a subject of a movie called in search of Bobby Fischer. And he actually gave up chess and transferred that inner learning to tai chi push hands competition which is a Korean specialty. And he actually went to Korea to compete in the world championship. And he became world champion. Donny Crawford (23:54): From chess to tai chi? That's awesome. Chris Beall  (24:01): Let's talk about a breakthrough. By the way, we told folks that we were going to teach them how to have a fail safe discovery meeting. What's funny is, and it's just a funny thing. I'm going to put this in and then turn it back over to Donny. The fact of the matter is, you promise in this breakthrough approach that you're going to share a breakthrough with them. Therefore, a fail say, pre discovery meeting is nothing more than sharing this breakthrough. However, for it to be fail safe, you need to have the psychology of that meeting appropriate to that meeting. When somebody accepts a meeting with you, you actually have got to start that meeting off a little bit differently than an ambush because you're not ambushing them. So now you need to actually establish a connection at the beginning and then you have to get them to go from their current mental, emotional state, which is apprehension that you're going to sell to them to some other state, which is basically a mutual curiosity and collaboration in order to find some truth. What I call the confessional and there's a little path you can take somebody on in that conversation also from that feeling of apprehension about being sold to, to a feeling of pride. So rather than going to trust what you already have, you can go to pride. And many times I've seen people say, experts say, just get to the point. Well, the point is not, hey, I'm going to interrogate you about what's true about your business in some dry fashion. The point is that we might actually decide to do something together. That's pretty risky for you. It's not very risky for me, by the way, I'm the salesperson pretty risky for you because your reputation's on the line, your careers on the line. And we need to make that move from apprehension to it's okay to work together through some other emotional states. And the easy one to get through too, is pride of place. And that is just ask somebody, "Where are you on the face of our blue whirling planet?" And they will speak with pride about their home. They chose it and they'll speak with pride about it. And it's quite an amazing experience to allow their pride in themselves in just where they live. Something as simple as that to allow you then to go to their pride and their mission just by asking them this question, which is when everything goes great. When it's really outstanding, when it's the perfect fit between your solution and the customer's need, when their budget is there, when the price is right for them, where your customer success, people do the right thing. The customer does the right thing. When everything works great, how does your product or your offering change that person's life? And you let somebody answer that. And now there's pride in their professional world. That's how to actually conduct that breakthrough sharing session because then you can get to those three things, the economic one, the emotional one and the strategic one, but you're doing it in an emotional setting. That's got a shot. So there I threw in the purpose. Otherwise, we're not keeping our press or [crosstalk 00:27:18] webinar, but now you've learned it while you've heard it anyway. And Donny, take us home here. We have three minutes. Donny Crawford (27:25): If you back up to the blueprint, I think that there's something really important here. If you are able to enter into a relationship with someone, there's two types of people in the world, I'm going to classify the human race. You have the ability to classify them. People you've never spoken to and people who you have. As long as you treat the people who you have never spoken to before with a certain understanding that they are somewhat afraid of you when you try to reach out to them for the first time, everyone has a little bit of that apprehension. If you're able to get a little bit of trust with them, every touch, if you've established trust right at the beginning, get go of the relationship. Just to reiterate what Chris was saying. Every touch from that point forward, if you are able to maintain that trust then in any other discussion that you have with them after the first one. So I've talked with them the first time. Those are the people who I need to reach out to for the first time. Every other interaction moving forward from that point, they are able to trust you and therefore give you what you need to help them out moving forward. And when it comes to these breakthrough sharing discussions or discovery calls or getting them into a pilot phase, if you've opened up the relationship with a trust building process, and they're able to continue trusting you on an ongoing basis, they are willing and eager to continue to learn from you, work with you, confess their problems with you. And from that point forward, you're able to continue to reach out to them when the timing is right and be able to share with them what you need to share with them so that they're going to be able to essentially get all the benefits that your product, your service you are offering is able to offer to them. But it all does start with this trust. Chris Beall  (29:32): Flight School is unlike anything else in the world. It is completely unique. It's life fire. It's the only sales training in the world where you make money. You're not spending money, you're actually making it because you're talking to real prospects, having real meetings and real good things happen. You build pipeline during the training at a much higher rate than you might be doing otherwise. Gerhard Gerschwandtner (29:53): That was fascinating, Donny. I just reminded when you talked about the magic that happens in a conversation, I think we all want to discover a better way of connecting with people and you have shown us today. There is a better way, and it's not just about the message. It's about how you deliver the message. The message has to come really deep from inside of you, the essence of you needs to resonate with other people. So you are talking about authenticity, but the authenticity only comes out if you do the opening right. And I see the opening like the first button on a shirt. If the first button is right, all the other buttons are right. Chris Beall  (29:53): It's going to line up. Gerhard Gerschwandtner (30:48): But if the first button is wrong, they don't line up and you're not going to have a positive connection with the customer. Chris Beall  (30:54): It's true.    

In striving for market dominance, which among the top companies in any field do you think puts forth the most effort to gain — or hold onto — that dominant position? Our guest, Matt McCorkle, Manager of Branch Operations for Kaeser Compressors, and our two Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, debate this question during this final conversation of their four-part discussion on all things sales-related. Even loyal followers of our Market Dominance Guys’ podcast will be surprised at the shared opinion these three sales gurus hold about which highly ranked company within each industry or service can claim bragging rights to the title of this episode, “We Try Hardest!” About Our Guest Matt McCorkle is Manager of Branch Operations for Kaeser Compressors. He has earned both a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree in mechanical engineering and has now been with Kaeser Compressors for 13 years. Catch the three previous episodes in this session with Matt McCorkle: EP107: On the Phone, They’ll Tell You the Truth EP108: Sales and the State of Apprehension EP109: Being There for Your Customers   Full episode transcript below: Chris Beall (00:00): Well, that's funny. Many people have asked me, "Who do you want to do business with in any industry?" And I always say, "I want to do business with the number three player. Always." Corey Frank (01:22): Okay. So, Matt, we always leave it on recording because we have just a brief... But thanks. Great stuff, brother. That's really kind of you to spend so much time and to... We're very careful about asking questions. We want to disclose the family jewels there. So I appreciate you indulging in some but not all of your techniques. Matt McCorkle (01:43): Absolutely. By the way, there is one that I was realizing, I probably shouldn't have said third, I'm thinking. I mean, I feel like it's common knowledge, probably. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but the guys who are fourth and fifth might be like, "I thought I was third." I don't know. Chris Beall (02:00): Well, that's funny. Many people have asked me, "Who do you want to do business with in any industry?" And I always say, "I want to do business with the number three player. Always. Always." Because number one is focused on the past. Matt McCorkle (02:15): Right. Chris Beall (02:16): Number two is focused on number one. Matt McCorkle (02:19): Yeah. Chris Beall (02:19): Three is focused on taking the entire industry. It's always the same. Matt McCorkle (02:24): And the guys behind are just hanging around. Chris Beall (02:26): That's right. Matt McCorkle (02:27): [crosstalk 00:02:27]- Chris Beall (02:27): So I mean, you look at it back in the day, right? Number one was Hertz. Number two was Avis. Number three was Enterprise. If you knew how Enterprise ran, you knew they were going to own the world. Matt McCorkle (02:37): Yeah, yeah. Chris Beall (02:39): It was abundantly clear, because they weren't going after Hertz and Avis. They were going after the true loyalty of the person who rented a car, and they were going in places the other guys didn't go. I was talking to somebody today who worked at Enterprise. Day one at Enterprise, here's what they tell you. They ask a question, "So what's the most important thing that we have around here as an asset, piece of equipment or whatever?" "Oh, the cars." "Oh, the system." Everybody has answers and nobody ever comes up with the right answer. Chris Beall (03:10): The trainer's right answer is, "No, the telephone. And here's what you're going to learn to do. When that phone rings you answer within two rings and you sound like the person that that person needs right now." And that's how they built that business. Right? Avis and Hertz, they didn't focus on that. So the number three player I've been obsessed with in every industry I've ever done business in. Because you can't become number three unless you're great, right? Matt McCorkle (03:45): Yeah. Chris Beall (03:46): You've built in real industries. But the question is who wants to own it all? Who wants to go after it? It's never number one or number two. Matt McCorkle (03:54): Well, Chris, this is what's great about our partnership with you because I don't know that we can. It's still, to me, a little bit of an open question of whether we can take those spots, because we are the top of the top. I mean, it is a different product, a different solution we offer than the other guys. And it is a dramatic different price. And so part of this experiment is to say, "What is that market share? What is the amount of the market that is willing to pay for the fully engineered German product that we sell? And that it is a good business decision for them to do that. How big of a market is it that needs that reliable of air at the cost we're able to give it to them?" Chris Beall (04:43): Well, something to remember, and we've discussed this on Market Dominance Guys, is the market is always a list. Matt McCorkle (04:50): Right. Chris Beall (04:51): It's always a list. And you dominate that list. Matt McCorkle (04:54): Yes. Chris Beall (04:55): So what somebody else might define as the market and market share is irrelevant. The question is four of those that you put on the list because you think they belong on the list because they meet the characteristics of those in the list, do you dominate there? Matt McCorkle (05:10): Right. Chris Beall (05:10): That- Matt McCorkle (05:11): That's true. And leave out that segment that doesn't need reliable air because [crosstalk 00:05:18]- Chris Beall (05:17): Yeah. That's it. I mean, it's so simple. And the beauty of dominance is dominance always excludes competition unless you want them to have part of it so you can throw them the bad deals. Because even within your list there are the- Matt McCorkle (05:35): [crosstalk 00:05:35]- Chris Beall (05:35): ... so you can throw them the bad deals. Because even within your list there are the- Corey Frank (05:37): True. Matt McCorkle (05:37): Absolutely. Chris Beall (05:37): And you definitely need somebody to throw the bad deals to, or else you get stuck with the damn things. Matt McCorkle (05:44): Very true. Very true. I was coaching one of my managers on that just today. I don't think this is done, not meeting the criteria that we talk about as somebody we're going to do business with. Chris Beall (05:55): Exactly. My dad told me something. He said once to me, "I'm only ever going to give you one piece of business advice. And here it is. You are never better than your worst customer." Matt McCorkle (06:06): Oh, man. Huh, that's interesting. Corey Frank (06:09): Yeah. Matt McCorkle (06:11): Yeah. There you go. Corey Frank (06:13): Yeah. Matt McCorkle (06:14): And you don't want to be that. Corey Frank (06:15): Actually, we got a couple of and nuggets just right there, just keep the record button on for another five minutes. We got both of you guys in the can with a couple of other... So, Matt- Matt McCorkle (06:26): [crosstalk 00:06:26]- Corey Frank (06:26): ... you're not in Milwaukee, you're in Virginia, then? Matt McCorkle (06:28): I'm in Virginia. Yes. Corey Frank (06:29): Okay. Gotcha. All right. Matt McCorkle (06:30): Where are you out of? You're in Phoenix, you said. Corey Frank (06:32): We're in Phoenix. Chris is just south of me right now. He's seasonally adjusted, should be by now. My dad was a cop in Milwaukee for 30 plus years or so. So we grew up- Matt McCorkle (06:44): Wow. Corey Frank (06:45): ... not five minutes from where you're talking about. My grandpa, we got pictures, right, my grandpa selling fruit right around the corner from there. That was all swampland where now they have... It's Summerfest grounds and all that stuff. Matt McCorkle (07:00): Right, right. Corey Frank (07:01): And so it's a beautiful place, but gotcha. Matt McCorkle (07:04): Great city. Corey Frank (07:04): Yeah, absolutely. So, Chris, plans for the birthday? What are you doing this weekend, then? Chris Beall (07:09): We were going to go play golf somewhere and I decided to change that up. So we're going to go for a hike up Madera Canyon for three or four hours. Corey Frank (07:17): Oh, beautiful. Chris Beall (07:18): Who knows? Maybe we'll see the trogon, maybe we won't. Helen doesn't give a damn about birds, but for the sake of my mom and my late wife, I'll take a look for the trogon. Oh, my friend, Robert Garner, just yesterday I had a snack with him and a coffee or whatever in Los Gatos. And he pulls out a picture of the trogon and he says, "You got to go see this bird at Madera Canyon." So we'll see whether on my 67th birthday I can see a bird that most people don't ever see. Matt McCorkle (07:46): That's really awesome. Corey Frank (07:48): Oh, that's going to be great. Well, I've been privileged to know you for many of those. So we'll look for many, many, many more. So thanks for what you do, Chris. And, Matt, thank you again for the time. And we'll keep in touch and we'll get you on the program here again and again. You're a natural. Matt McCorkle (08:05): Oh, thank you. You're too kind. Again, really appreciate it. Hope it's valuable. Corey Frank (08:08): Awesome. Matt McCorkle (08:08): And happy birthday, Chris. Corey Frank (08:09): All right, everybody. Matt McCorkle (08:09): Have a great weekend. Corey Frank (08:09): All right. Chris Beall (08:10): Thanks so much, Matt, [crosstalk 00:08:11]- Corey Frank (08:11): Thank care, guys. See you. Bye-bye. Chris Beall (08:12): Have fun dominating. Bye-bye. Matt McCorkle (08:14): Thank you.  

There’s a decided difference between the purpose of a cold call and that of a discovery call. During a discovery call, marketing language, also known as “selling your product or service,” is entirely appropriate. But if you foolishly use marketing language during your first conversation with a prospect — well, that, my podcast friends, is the cold-call kiss of death. Join these three successful cold-callers as they discuss the components of each type of call and warn you away from the two biggest cold-calling mistakes. James Thornburg, Enterprise IT Strategist at Bridgepointe Technologies, continues his conversation with our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, in order to provide you with some guidance about this important difference. Listen in to borrow from the best as these three professional salespeople lend you their expertise on this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “The Cold-Call Kiss of Death.” About Our Guest James Thornburg is the Enterprise IT Strategist at Bridgepointe Technologies, which offers a service that helps design IT and telecom projects for their clients and includes selecting the right supplier at the right price with no extra cost to their customers. Catch his previous episode here:  Is Cold Calling a Form of Slapstick? Full episode transcript below: Corey Frank (01:30): Give us a little insight into what happens after the cold call. Somebody says, "Yeah, I'll take the meeting." Walk us through that sales. Do you use a methodology? Are you a Sandler guy? Are you a pitch anything guy? Corey Frank (01:42): Are you a question-based selling? How does your demeanor change on the fact find end of discovery, the illumination, because they showed up for this meeting, differently from the top of funnel, the cold call? James Thornberg (01:57): So the next step is a 30-minute call. And so we have that 30-minute call with a client and it's to really kind of introduce them to the concept. hey, do you see value in what we do and how we can help you buy technology? James Thornberg (02:10): And then if they do, we walk them through the areas that we focus on. And while we're doing that, we're doing some discovery to identify if there's a possibility of a project in the future. James Thornberg (02:21): So we're poking around a little bit, trying to find out, hey is there something that's coming up? And then based on, hey, yeah, you can help us out, we identify an area and then the next step would be a deeper technical conversation in regards to their scope and then their requirements. James Thornberg (02:36): And then based on that conversation, we align them with who we think the top two or three suppliers are and [inaudible 00:02:43] that process. Corey Frank (02:44): Do you use a methodology or is it true empathetic kind of discovery solution sell? What do you take from the cold call, your persona, your style, and use in the discovery or the illumination stage? James Thornberg (02:59): Well, our process, I mean, it's very relationship-driven because we're not doing the selling. We are streamlining that process to help them save time. And because the reality is, let's just say you have a project that you're working on. James Thornberg (03:15): You have three vendors that you're working with. You're meeting with a direct sales rep. I mean, their job is to sell you their stuff, may or may not be the best fit. And so when customers go and they reach out to these vendors directly, they have to sift through the noise, fact or fiction, and who's the best fit. James Thornberg (03:30): Where we step into that is we say, hey, meet with us first. We'll do some discovery, get an idea of your requirements. And then based on that, we'll make some recommendations. And then we facilitate that process and get them the information that they need so they're in a better position to make an informed IT decision. James Thornberg (03:46): So the process isn't like your typical sales process. We're following a certain methodology. I mean, we do have steps in the process that we follow, but it's not a traditional sales approach because we're not direct salespeople in a sense. Corey Frank (04:03): Got it. What's more fun for you? Do you have a balance of how often you do cold calls? How often you do discovery? And do you yearn for doing one over the other? James Thornberg (04:14): I'm enjoying it all to be frank. Right now, I have a great process. I make calls maybe like an hour, an hour and a half a day, typically four or five days a week. Pretty much every day anywhere between 9:00 and 11:00. James Thornberg (04:29): And then in the afternoon, it's dedicated to meetings. And depending on the day I may be running two or seven different meetings. They might be net new meetings. They may be follow-ups, things of that new nature. James Thornberg (04:42): And then what people don't get to see, and it's kind of hard to understand, is there's a whole world of selling and working deals behind the scenes with the different providers in terms of registration and things of that nature, competitors. James Thornberg (04:59): I mean, it's a knife fight. And what people don't realize about this business is that these deals don't always go through the front door traditionally like how people expect them to be. I mean, there's a lot of maneuvering on opportunities to get things done. Corey Frank (05:13): How about from a metrics perspective, James? I think Chris, at any given time, you give him seven seconds notice he'll pull up the data and the stats for his team and know within the first hour of the day, if they're off or who needs help on the intro, who needs help on tonality. Corey Frank (05:30): Do you look at, as kind of the proprietor of your own practice there, do you look at the stats at that level of tactical detail of how you're doing in one day or the other and dial to connect or dialed a meeting, or if you're getting your butt kicked in the intro, maybe it's a tonality thing and I should probably change it up? Corey Frank (05:50): How do you use math of the data to kind of alter or calibrate your sales process? James Thornberg (05:55): I do have a general idea in terms of what my numbers look like. I don't get overly concerned about, hey, you know what? My conversions are down this month. I just think it's a trend. I mean, you look at last week for me, I set five meetings like an hour and a half. James Thornberg (06:10): Never happened before. This week, I'm at one meeting, probably 20 conversations. So it's not horrible, but not great. And so it just flows. It flows and some days I'm better than others. I can feel it. James Thornberg (06:23): You just know the conversations or I'm catching the right people. But I have a good idea in terms of my conversions. I mean, well, Data Connect's kind of irrelevant I guess right now, but Data Connect was trending at probably close to 3.5%. James Thornberg (06:34): But my conversions on my conversations are right around 10. Out 10 people I talk to I'm converting one of those. Corey Frank (06:46): And that's probably different than when you first started, right? I mean, you probably did start at 10%, so. James Thornberg (06:51): I was at 5% and then I was converting around 10% on my follow-ups. And so now I have more follow-ups. I think I've gotten a little bit better. So my conversions are up a little bit, but it's been sitting around the 10%. Corey Frank (07:05): What do you see, Chris, from data overall? Obviously that CO ConnectAndSell, you kind of sit on top of the mountain and see millions and millions of calls every single month. What do you see as far as trends from dial to connect and conversion rate? Corey Frank (07:20): If I'm an average rep and I'm just getting in the game and I work on James team and I have a minimal amount of training, what's my conversion rate? What should I expect from a dial-to-connect rate? Corey Frank (07:31): What are some of the best practices you're seeing just from administering so many dials and being in charge of so many tens of thousands of conversations? Chris Beall (07:41): Yeah, there's not a lot of big trends. It's more individuated. When it all backed down from conversions from conversation to meeting conversions, for folks who are just starting out, the big issue is well, they tend not to know what to say. Chris Beall (07:58): They tend to make the two classic mistakes. There are two huge mistakes you can make in a cold call. One is using marketing language and marketing language will drive people to say, we're set. And that's the most common outcome from any conversation. Chris Beall (08:11): Cold conversation is you get we're set. And that just means you over telegraphed what it is that you do in a way that insults that person and basically implies they weren't doing their job. Why didn't you know about this? Chris Beall (08:24): You were waiting for a salesperson to call and tell you how to do your job. Most people don't take to that well. And so that's pretty classic. And then the other one that you see among new reps and among people who've been doing it for a while is we're great. Chris Beall (08:43): We're great. We're fantastic. We help companies like Mercedes-Benz, Toyota and whoever do X, Y, and Z. And it's like, yeah, my daddy's stronger than your daddy. Got it, we're in the third-grade playground. Chris Beall (08:57): And you get psychological reactants to your grade. If you can avoid both of those, you can actually do pretty well in cold calling saying almost anything as long as you insist on the meeting. Chris Beall (09:08): It's kind of funny, but given that it's a bit of a high wire act for people who are learning. And that's actually, I think, value of training and consulting around this, is the message consulting and then training. Chris Beall (09:20): It's not so much. There's the tonality, there's all this stuff to learn how to do, but there are these two mistakes that eat up 95% of all conversations. Which are, yeah, you tell them what business you're in, and they say we're set. Chris Beall (09:34): Or you tell them that they're an idiot because you're great and they're not. And you just avoid those and life's pretty easy. 5% is kind of an okay journeyman cold conversion rate. Masters, Cheryl can go into any industry. Chris Beall (09:57): She went into commercial real estate. Knows nothing about commercial real estate, converts it 35% out of the box just because she's knows... First of all, she truly believes in the value of the meeting, truly believes in it. Insists on it. Chris Beall (10:13): This isn't a game. This meeting's really important for you. And by the way, she means it when she says thinking back, I can't think of one person who's ever told me it was a waste of their time to meet with Henry. Chris Beall (10:28): What are you going to say? All you're asking for is their time. I can't think of one person who said it was a waste of their time. That's pretty good. That's a testimonial that doesn't insult. It's very, very simple. Chris Beall (10:41): So it's that kind of thing. The numbers can be up in the 30s, 40s, 50s, up in Scott Webb territory up in the 70s. It does require that you be prepared to hold the meeting that you offered rather than some other meeting. Chris Beall (10:58): And it's an unstable thing. And I don't think it's so much in the cold calling. We can teach lots of people to cold call if they've got a good personality, decent personality, like other people, want good things. Chris Beall (11:07): Most important thing, you have to want something good for the other person. You actually have to want something good for them inside yourself, right? It has to be part of who you are when you... This is, I think, more important than personality is I'll call it kind of ethical stance. Chris Beall (11:23): In the general case, do you want something good to happen for another person even if you've just met them? Some people do. Some people don't. It's like some puppies approach you and lick your hands. Some puppies cower back in corner and are afraid you're going to do something bad to them. Chris Beall (11:41): Every one of us is one of those kinds of puppies at birth. And some people manage to make a transition to the other kind of puppy, the friendly ones, but some people kind of stay in that fearful state and can't come out and play. Chris Beall (11:54): Because nobody's going to come and play with you if you don't come out and play. I mean, why would they? That's dumb, right? So I think it has a lot more to do with that than technique. And what people can expect from dial to connect is dial to connect doesn't really change very much. Chris Beall (12:09): If your lists are fantastic and you take great care of them and your market's big enough that new folks are coming into it about as fast as you're having conversations, which cause them to leave, your dial to connect is going to sit in the 20s. Chris Beall (12:23): Your follow-up dial-to-connect will sit in the teens, which is because those are people who answer the phone. And your reschedule, which is the ultimate, is going to become your primary weapon over time. Corey Frank (12:35): That's right. Chris Beall (12:36): That conversation. Hey, I see we had something on the calendar, right? I think of how flustered I was coming in here apologizing to you guys. Calling Thornberg, God, I'm so sorry, I was half an hour late for this recording session. I felt like shit. You had me. [inaudible 00:12:52] Corey Frank (12:51): We had the moral authority frame as our friend Oren talks about. Chris Beall (12:55): Yeah, exactly. So I think that's where the game is really played. It's not where people think it is. It's not in the mechanics. It's not in the numbers per se. I hate to say it like this, it sounds crazy, but it's kind of in your soul. James Thornberg (13:11): I like to say that you've got to have heart and if you have heart, then it comes across. People can tell that you can care. And if you're making these calls and you don't have it, then it's going to come off you're a crazy person. [inaudible 00:13:25]. You're a crazy person. Corey Frank (13:29): Yeah, you're dead inside, right? It's a single one-way reach. I mean, have to be willing to be vulnerable to expect somebody to reciprocate in their vulnerability to establish trust, right? Corey Frank (13:43): Chris, you talk a lot about that. But I think your stats that you're talking about, Chris and James even gets your opinion on this, if I'm an average two, three years out of school, I've had a couple of gigs. Corey Frank (13:53): I like to think I'm a sales guy or girl, and I'm at 5%. And I got this Cheryl girl sitting next to me and she's doing seven X what I'm doing at conversion rate. And let's say, you have your sales manager. Corey Frank (14:10): What is sales manager's kind of fundamentally missing? Because seems today in the industry, it's well, let's just keep hiring a bunch of Corey's not realizing, wait a minute. If you use some curl and approach, if you use some OMG, if you use some... Certainly you're a big fan of how you interview and the questions to ask. Corey Frank (14:28): Spend a little bit more time on that, finding more people- people, people with heart, you're going to get a return, but of seven X. Let alone if I'm sitting next to Scott where he's going to do 10 to 12X what I'm doing on a given day in a given week, in a given quarter, that's just staggering. Corey Frank (14:46): That sometimes us, we as sales leaders, we're focusing on the wrong thing sometimes if those conversion rates that drive conversations are so disparate. Chris Beall (14:55): The spread is big. It's big. I don't know, James, your thoughts. You're one guy. So you don't deal with the spread. You deal with yourself. James Thornberg (15:04): Well, but I mean, I have Robert calling with me, right? And so it's hard to say because I don't think the spread is going to be that big doing what we're doing. James Thornberg (15:54): Yeah, because I look at his numbers. I mean, he's really good. He's got a completely different approach. I steal a lot of stuff from him, but he's got the energy and he's done a really good job. James Thornberg (16:04): We've had a good run and we have completely different approach. Like I said, I steal his jokes and things like that, but we're both trending around that 10%. And I haven't seen anybody else. James Thornberg (16:15): We had somebody working with us and really their problem wasn't... They were converting lower. I'm happy when I have people calling for me, when I hire more people trending at 5%, doing what we do. James Thornberg (16:28): And as long as our conversions on the closes, I'll take that all day long. The problem is finding somebody to actually do the work, making the dials. But the 5%, I would take that all day long. Chris Beall (16:40): You say making the dials, I've never seen you make a dial. You must make one to get any connect done, isn't that funny? James Thornberg (16:45): I mean, it's just a joke, yeah. I mean, what else are you going to say? I mean, it's hard to... You've got to say make dials. Corey Frank (16:50): I hate pushing buttons. Chris Beall (16:53): Yeah, it's a funny thing though. Even my reps talk about making dials. And so I go, let me check. Let's see, you made one yesterday. Okay, that's pretty good. You had 5.68 hours of conversations and you talked to something on the order of 55 people. Chris Beall (17:11): So you pushed a button 55 time. I don't know, I'm going to check with your doctor and see whether you're checked out to be allowed to do that or you got arthritis or something. Corey Frank (17:19): You change every day and you get the guy with a good bull pin, you get about five days rest between starts and a... You've got about nine days rest between fingers. I guess that's the strenuous. Corey Frank (17:30): So James what's missing? What's a skill when listen to people like Cheryl or Ryan or Chris Beall or Scott or any of these other masters, right? What keeps you awake at night saying, gosh, I wish I had more of X skill to get to 11% or 12%? What are you working on right now to boost that even more? James Thornberg (17:51): That's a tough question to answer. I mean, my pitch, I like the framework. I would like to be able to condense it but still be able to get the same messaging across in terms of the problem. James Thornberg (18:04): And so I'm working on some things to try to tweak that to make that better. So, if you guys could help me out with that, that'd be great. Chris Beall (18:11): Well, I actually think you do two things in a cold call. It's your own business, so you can do it and it's fine. So you actually do a little bit more description of what you do in a way that doesn't insult that person. Chris Beall (18:23): It's such a new kind of thing anyway. It allows them to think about it and you get a pretty qualified meeting. They're intrinsically qualified. I mean that actually in your business, I think intrinsic qualification is probably pretty straightforward. Chris Beall (18:35): Everybody who's running an IT shop that's bigger than a bread box has tech purchases they've got to do. Timing. Timing is timing. Who knows, right? So the question is, are they in market right now? Chris Beall (18:46): But you actually do, in my opinion, a little bit of the discovery call. Not that you're doing discovery, but you're offering them the chance to see whether they fit into that kind of problem set so to speak at this moment. Chris Beall (19:00): So that's fine. I mean the 10%'s a really big number because your conversions go up. The average shop that folks are running when reps try to do anything resembling discovery, anything resembling qualification on a cold call, they can't cross that psychological barrier that keeps them from blowing the trust. Chris Beall (19:25): They just can't. When they switch to selling, they follow one of the two big problems, which is either you get the, we are set, which is not answerable. No one in the world can answer the, we're set objection. Chris Beall (19:37): Oh, that's great, James, we're set. No, you're not. What are you going to do, right? Fight them on that one? Yes I am. No, you're not. Yes I am, right? Information's superiority. I know my situation- Corey Frank (19:50): So wait, all set means go away. Chris Beall (19:53): That's right. All set means go away. What it means is you've told them enough that you've offered them another way out of the conversation and their goal is always the same. Chris Beall (20:01): I think this is the hardest thing about cold calling is to remember that your goal is whatever, right? If it's just to get trust, it's nice and simple because you always win. If to get meeting as gravy now or a follow-up later, then it's good. Chris Beall (20:17): Because I didn't blow it so I can talk to him later, right? So I'm kind of setting the table. So that's all kind of like an okay place to be. When you try to go to the next thing, you start selling. Chris Beall (20:35): And when you start selling, you're screwed. It's just all there is to it because the person has one goal. You cold-call somebody, they have one goal right up until the point where they hang up the phone. Chris Beall (20:47): And that's to get off this call with their self-image intact. It's actually a qualified goal. Goal, get off the call. Qualification, can't blow my own view myself. That's the only constraint that keeps them from hanging up immediately. Chris Beall (21:03): That's why when James you offer, hey, I'll tell you this and then you can hang up. What you're doing is actually kind of shining a light on the other side of that goal, which is by the way, I'm pretty sure that you want to keep yourself image intact. Chris Beall (21:16): So, kind of hang with me a little bit here, right? The elements of civility. I actually think this is where the game is played and this is why cold calling is so hard, is we have a hard time keeping in our heads and our hearts that the other person's goal is to get off this call with their self-image intact. Chris Beall (21:38): And the moment we offer that as an exit, they're out. They're gone. Corey Frank (21:44): So, which is why a challenging question or using marketing language that could put them in an awkward position where they don't know something is so damaging. Is that what you're saying? Chris Beall (21:56): Oh, the marketing language. We all know what marketing language is for. Establish ourselves in a category and differentiate from others in the category in a way that's of value for our target audience and no one else. Chris Beall (22:09): That's a master's level course in marketing right there. There's only two things we're trying to do. We're in this category and we're different from the others in the category in a way you care about and value. Boom, done. Chris Beall (22:20): Use either one of those in a cold call in your toast. As soon as you say the category, you're saying you are waiting for a sales rep to call and tell you about a category of solution that apparently you're not aware of, you idiot. Chris Beall (22:39): I mean, it's like, that's not what they're waiting for. And marketing departments get close to cold call messaging because they think it's their job. Guaranteed failure. You're just shooting yourself in the head every time. Corey Frank (22:53): And is that much of the core of a three, four, 5% conversion rate versus 25, 50% plus conversion rate? Chris Beall (23:04): Yeah. I mean the person who gets the 25, 50% conversion rate, they only have one goal, to get trust. Then they have another question which is, if I were to lead from here with curiosity, will it resonate sufficiently with this person? Chris Beall (23:21): Which means is my list any good, not if anything else, that they will agree verbally to take a meeting? At which point I'm done. And then I see one more, very delicately, maybe we can get it on the calendar. Chris Beall (23:37): But if not, so what? Modern tech says send them an email with a calendar invite. It's on their calendar. They agreed. Why should we question their agreement? Who are we to say no that wasn't an agreement when you agreed to meet with me? You dog. If you don't put it in blood, I ain't meeting with you. What's that about? Corey Frank (23:54): Yeah, that's- James Thornberg (23:59): [inaudible 00:23:59] conversions though. I mean it's dependent upon the industry that you're in and what you're selling. Would you agree or disagree with that? Chris Beall (24:07): I watched Cheryl and I don't know. I mean, commercial insurance is impossible. There's no way to get meetings there, right? Scott Webb gets them at that level. And it has to do with mindset and the willingness to put the meeting in the air rather than on the calendar. Chris Beall (24:26): That is, it's using a modern thing that wouldn't have worked before, right? If I got a verbal from you in whenever, 1992, that said, yeah, sure, I can meet with you? And it's like, okay, great, I'll shoot you something, and then... There's no and then. Chris Beall (24:45): But if I shoot you a calendar invite, it's on your calendar and you did agree to meet. Well, I told you we could move it around. If you don't show up, I also know you answer the phone, so we're going to have a little conversation that's very nice, very respectful. Chris Beall (24:59): Something important must have come up for you, when would be a better time to meet? So, if Cheryl calls this going from if to when, and I think it's the biggest thing we do in sales, is we go from if we're going to engage, to when we're going to engage. Chris Beall (25:14): And we just leave if behind. There ain't no if anymore. It's just a question of when. Corey Frank (25:20): Let's get Cheryl on the phone and have her pitch a bridge point. Chris Beall (25:23): I tell you what, you probably [inaudible 00:25:27] James Thornberg (25:29): Heads up competition. Let's see. Corey Frank (25:32): What's next for the cold call king James? James Thornberg (25:34): Next for the cold call king, year three for me. Corey Frank (25:37): Yeah, you're coming in year three. James Thornberg (25:38): I did. I mean, I survived. I mean, people, the hardest part of this business, people pretty much run out of money in six months, 12 months, depending on how much money they have. And they say you're a made man if you make it two years. James Thornberg (25:50): So I'm pretty much made it. Now it's just a matter of building the business. So I'm thinking about trying to find people to make calls, give me a little bit of help. I mean, we'll see. James Thornberg (26:04): But next year 2022 is about building and getting a little bit more finesse about my processes and things like that. I mean, it's been a lot about survival for the last two years. And so now that I'm at a point where, hey, it looks like you made it here. Probably some tweaks for 2022. Chris Beall (26:22): You laid out for me in June of 19, you called me and helped me a lot. It was a very difficult time in my life in that week that tragedy had occurred. Chris Beall (26:34): And I was walking through the airport in San Francisco, going out to take an Uber over to the Rosewood Hotel and meet with Sean and John and Manny and talk some things over about the business. Chris Beall (26:46): And you called me and said, I'm thinking about doing this. Could you be of some help? There is nothing better in the world than having somebody ask you to help them. That's simply when you're feeling imperfect, that's wonderful. Chris Beall (27:00): And you laid out a high-level plan. You said, "This is what I think I can do." Because I asked you kind of how did the numbers work? And you laid out kind of how the numbers work. Chris Beall (27:08): You're the only person I've ever known in a 42-year business career who's told me how the numbers were going to work and then made the numbers work just like that. Because you're pretty much on plan, right? James Thornberg (27:21): Right on plan. I'm doing better actually. So this year I'll probably close out the year at, first year with 16,000 this year. I'll do right around 150 to 160. And then I have about between 250 and 300 next year. James Thornberg (27:34): So right on the trajectory. I mean, it's rates up and I think next year's going to be where I land my, maybe not an elephant, but a game-changer in terms of opportunities that are on the pipeline and things like that. James Thornberg (27:49): But I've been scrapping quite a bit. Nothing real big, no silver bullets. Just day in, day out. I've closed, I can't remember what it was, it was like 35, 40 deals, somewhere around there, I think since I started. But yeah, it's been a great experience. Chris Beall (28:07): No, it goes both ways. It's been really just tremendous working with you. That discussion we had on, I think it was November 5th. I think it was the day before my birthday. Chris Beall (28:18): I was out on this barefoot run and we were talking about what could happen going forward and kind of put something together. And I totally remember how excited I was about that conversation, because I thought, wow here's the guy that's really going to go after it and do it right. Chris Beall (28:32): And so it's just pretty cool. I mean, Corey, how often do we get to do this, right? To be just a part of somebody doing it right, making it happen. It's astonishing. Corey Frank (28:43): I used to be in the cheap seats and watch you week after week, month after month put those calls on the board, right? It's great. It's incredible thought leadership. It's incredibly brave. Corey Frank (28:57): Have you had clients who have seen you go through this process as well? Is that endearing for any of them? Did they appreciate the hustle factor? What do they say when- James Thornberg (29:09): Yeah, I have a few fans. I don't promote it a lot. I don't really use LinkedIn for a lot of prospecting and things of that nature. So if people find me, they find me. James Thornberg (29:18): And then I have some existing customers and I've won a couple people over and people respect it I think. They respect the work that I'm doing, you know what I mean? I'm trying to provide for my family and trying to make things happen. James Thornberg (29:29): I mean, it's entrepreneurship. Just a single guy with really just ConnectAndSell and doing the work, so. Corey Frank (29:38): Well, it just shows, we've talked about this in virtually every episode, right? I mean to define your market and you have. And to dominate your market and you're on the way to get basically a deal, deal and a half every month on average for the two, two-plus years that you've been doing this. Corey Frank (29:56): I mean, you've tasted blood every month, right? You're knocking them down and the money's made in the follow-up. And clearly with all the relationships and the exhaust and the residue of the picker-uppers that you've had over the last two or three years that may not have been ready or in market, right? 20 months ago- James Thornberg (30:15): All the people that I've met with, I mean, it just keeps on stacking up. And that's what I mean. I mean, it's not a six-month run. It's not a 12-month run. It's not even two years. James Thornberg (30:25): It's I think at the end of three years, we'll see how it really kind of plays out. And it's exciting. Chris Beall (30:31): Well, this show's called Market Dominance guys, and it's about actually dominating market, which you're doing. We've never done this. I'm thinking of sharing a little screen here. Let's give it a shot and see what happens to us. Chris Beall (30:43): I'm going to have to explain it because it's an audio podcast, but here you are. James, this is you. This is only starting in April, because you switched over to a Salesforce kind of thingy rather than what we were doing before. Chris Beall (30:56): But actually these conversion numbers, look at this, that's meeting count. So what we're seeing is starting out of an April of this year, 10 meetings a month, 12, 23, 22. Chris Beall (31:09): Ooh, August was quiet. Did you go on vacation? Nine, and 25 meetings in, or 26 meetings in September. And then October was a little quieter. It was a little smaller number, and 26 again in November. Does this look familiar? James Thornberg (31:26): Yeah, it's a little inflated because the way that my Salesforce is integrated, there's ones that I kept. It's basically people that I'm following up with that I've met with before. So it's counting those meetings. So it's probably 15% off. Chris Beall (31:41): Oh, I see. So this is actually your follow-ups. Well that was kind of what Corey was just talking about. It's so interesting that sales... This is the difference between sales and market dominance to me. Chris Beall (31:52): Sales tends to be about this quarter and occasionally about this year. You're not doing sales for somebody else. You're building a dominant business. You're building a business that's going to provide your family with a legacy. Chris Beall (32:04): This is for real stuff. And Abby once said, if you want a good driver, strap him to the bumper. You're strapped to the damn bumper. James Thornberg (32:12): Yeah. Well, for sure. Chris Beall (32:14): I don't normally screen share because we have videos, but not everybody gets to see them but this is what dominance looks like. And if anybody's listening to this gets a chance to go out and follow Funnel Radio and find out where this video of this went. Chris Beall (32:32): You're literally looking at a picture of market dominance, because we talk cold call, cold call, cold call, cold call. We talk cold calls, but statistically the purpose of a cold call is to generate opportunities for follow-up calls. Chris Beall (32:46): And then meetings generate opportunities for follow-up calls also, because guess what? Just because we met with them, doesn't mean they're knocking on our door the next day. Corey Frank (32:55): Yeah, and you're proving the math of 36 months to dominate a market. And that's the math right? Chris Beall (33:02): Never changes. Market dominance is a 36-month process. It just is because the replacement cycle for everything in B2B is about three years. Corey Frank (33:12): Yeah, and you've got to be front and center when a guy like James talked to you last month and he's going to a call again this month. Because you know he is going to pick up the phone again. Chris Beall (33:22): And the joke's going to be the same joke, and it's still funny. Corey Frank (33:25): It's still funny. James Thornberg (33:27): Hey guys, my wife just texted me SOS. I don't know what's going on. Just bear with me for a second, or are we almost done? Do we want to- Corey Frank (33:34): Yeah, we're going to wrap it up here. So the king, it's Chris, it's always good to be in the presence of royalty. And James, we want to thank you for what you do to our profession. Corey Frank (33:46): And certainly as an advocate of ConnectAndSell, an advocate of cold calling, an advocate of humanity, of human-to-human interactions, couldn't be bigger fans than me and Chris. And we certainly appreciate all you're doing. Corey Frank (33:58): Wish you nothing but success. And for those of you who don't follow James Thornberg on LinkedIn, you're missing out certainly. So please subscribe to his page. Corey Frank (34:07): So James, any final thoughts and words of wisdom you could give to mere mortals, non-royalty folks like ourselves? James Thornberg (34:17): I don't know. I mean, my wife just texted me SOS. I guess my dog ran across the street. So I've got to run upstairs before I get in trouble. And she's leaving in a little bit too to go to book [inaudible 00:34:28]. James Thornberg (34:28): But hey listen, if you guys want to get together again or have another conversation, it's up to you. Corey Frank (34:33): Beautiful. Well, for the Market Dominance guys, this is Corey Frank with Chris Beall. Until next time, keep dominating your market. Chris Beall (34:40): Thanks guys.

Coming from a background in mechanical engineering, Matt McCorkle, Manager of Branch Operations for Kaeser Compressors, is very interested in how sales works. He has always believed in the power of the telephone as a selling tool, so when he learned about ConnectAndSell’s sales-acceleration platform from our Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, Matt immediately saw how he could use the telephone to increase Kaeser’s market share. “Matt was so curious, unlike many people in sales,” Chris says. Curious about how to get future appointments, how to coach coaches, how long onboarding takes, and about why face-to-face sales is different from phone sales. In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Corey Frank and Chris learn what Matt has figured out: In face-to-face sales, he says, “people like you to leave feeling that they like you, and you like them, and everything’s okay, so they’re not really telling you the truth.” But — as the title of today’s episode of Market Dominance Guys states — “On the Phone, They’ll Tell You the Truth!” Tune in to hear our Guys’ and Matt’s view on dominating your market through the awesome power of well-orchestrated and professionally coached cold calls.

In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, we’ll dissect that sales process called the “discovery call” and diagnose the problem that is keeping sales reps from making a successful one. Chris, Corey, and Oren Klaff, managing director of Intersection Capital, share their opinions on the subject, and lament the unfortunate fact that most sales reps have no set method for conducting a discovery call that includes true discovery. As Oren describes it, “Selling is a bit icky, and [salespeople] want to retreat quickly back to the relative calm of their normal lives. Once a salesperson hears one thing [from the prospect] that’s an indicator of interest, they want to hit the buzzer” and immediately jump to the sales pitch so they can end their own discomfort. As Oren sees it, this cut-to-the-chase method is the primary reason many discovery calls fail. Instead of truly finding out what problems the prospect or his company might have, which the product being offered might solve, reps skip right over the creation of a relationship that might help them eventually make that sale. Chris is convinced that salespeople can actually be coached on where they went wrong during a discovery call and how to do it in a way that works. In this podcast, you can listen to the two questions that Chris begins his own discovery calls with — and then find out what the heck “the dog, the meat, and the chain-link fence” have to do with this subject. Who knew that a discussion about discovery calls could be so insightful and entertaining? If you missed the first half of this conversation, you can get it here: https://marketdominanceguys.com/e/getting-prospects-from-fear-to-commitment/

You’re about to make a cold call, hoping to get a commitment out of your prospect. What are you feeling? A little trepidation, perhaps? As all salespeople know, that’s the fear of rejection. But have you ever considered that your prospect is feeling some fear too? It’s true: most prospective customers feel the fear of having to talk to an invisible stranger. That’s a lousy way to start a conversation with someone you’re wanting a commitment from. So, how do you, an invisible stranger, get your prospect, an unknown person, to go quickly from fear to trust, then from trust to curiosity, and, finally, from curiosity to commitment — all in about a half of a minute? And how do you do it so the call doesn’t end with a disappointing outcome? Chris, Corey, and today’s Market Dominance Guys’ guest, Oren Klaff, managing director of Intersection Capital, tackle this challenge with a discussion about trust and how to manufacture it, especially at the speed and scale necessary for startup founders to glean success — before their new venture runs out of money. Listen to the continuation of this passionate conversation: https://marketdominanceguys.com/e/why-cutting-to-the-chase-in-discovery-calls-fails/

The theory of constraints dominates the world of business, and yet it tends to be ignored by almost everybody in business for a pretty simple reason: it's politically unpalatable. The theory of constraints says your business is a system, and every system has one and only one constraint. And that's the only thing you should be working on right now: understanding that constraint, characterizing it, coming up with an investment thesis, making the investment, or observing the results of the investment. The investment is something like better cycle time, increased throughput, more units that are doing the work, or better quality. Those who employ this practice will dominate markets.

Most sales professionals are familiar with the journey of a cold call.It starts with fear. From fear we move to trust. From trust we move to curiosity. From curiosity we move to commitment, and from commitment to action.In this episode, Corey and Chris remind us that there is only one discovery call or meeting. And a true discovery call or meeting doesn't have a destination in mind. Welcome to this episode of Market Dominance Guys, "Sales Professionals - stop worrying about the deal."