Market Dominance Guys

Today they welcome Helen Fanucci, author of "Love Your Team" and CEO/Co-Founder of Pipeline Power, for a candid look at why sales coaching fails - and how to fix it.
The stats are startling: only 0.01% of recorded sales conversations are ever reviewed, and 83% of sales managers have never received formal training. Through their discussion, the trio reveals practical solutions, including Helen's upcoming AI-powered coaching platform allowing sales managers to practice difficult conversations in a safe environment.
From Branch 49's "finishing school for future CEOs" approach to why cultural transformation must precede digital transformation, this conversation challenges conventional wisdom about sales leadership. Whether you're a seasoned CSO or a newly minted sales manager, you'll gain fresh perspectives on building and nurturing high-performing sales teams through systematic coaching.
Link to Free Chatbot tied to Chapter 11 of "Love Your Team."https://chatgpt.com/g/g-67539b3c0c2081918142398d78ac3de9-love-your-team-managing-underperformers

Last time, we peeled back the layers on spotting sales superstars with the Glider.ai crew. Now, in Episode 248, we're rolling our sleeves up and getting our hands dirty with the nuts and bolts of their process. Chris, Corey, Aron, and Anand aren't pulling any punches as they dissect Glider.ai's assessment approach. They're asking the hard-hitting questions: Can we really stamp out hiring bias? Where's the sweet spot between tech and human intuition in sales? And what's next in the evolution of building sales dream teams? Get ready for a no-nonsense deep dive that might just flip your hiring playbook on its head and supercharge your path to market dominance. Listen to this episode EP248: "Crafting Unbeatable Sales Teams: The Competitive Edge in B2B."
Catch the first part of this conversation here.

Aron Placencia and Anand Karasi from Glider.ai join Chris Beall and Corey Frank to tackle the perennial challenge of talent acquisition in sales. They're not just talking about finding "good" people – they're on the hunt for true "A players." How do you spot them? What makes them tick? And how can you build a team full of them? From the pitfalls of traditional hiring to the power of curiosity in sales, this conversation pulls no punches. Tune in as they break down Glider.ai's fresh approach to assessing and hiring top talent, and why it matters in today's cutthroat sales landscape. Listen to this episode, EP247: "Uncovering A-Players: The New Science of Sales Talent Acquisition."
About Glider.ai
Glider AI goes back to our CEO's humble beginnings in India. Dedication, work ethic, and a strong family network enabled Satish to find success. But he saw many others like him, equally capable, struggle and continue to struggle. This catapulted the idea of Glider into flight to create a platform helping hiring teams build their dream team and candidates land their dream job. Visit https://glider.ai.
 

Helen Fanucci, CEO and Founder of Pipeline Power, continues her role as host in this illuminating conversation with Chris Beall. We're picking up where we left off, unraveling the mysteries of dormant leads and exploring their untapped potential. This episode delves into what Chris calls "Lazarus leads" - those seemingly dead opportunities that can be resurrected for massive value. As Helen astutely observes, "It's not 16 billion of value. It's 16 billion of wasted ad spend piling up." Get ready for eye-opening insights and innovative strategies that could revolutionize your approach to inbound leads, potentially doubling your Return on Ad Spend. This conversation is packed with game-changing ideas for sales leaders, CSOs, and CEOs looking to transform their sales strategy.
Listen to the first half of this conversation here.
Listen to all episodes featuring Helen Fanucci here.

We're shaking things up today with Helen Fanucci, CEO and Founder of Pipeline Power, taking the reins as our host. Helen engages Chris Beall in a thought-provoking exploration of dormant leads - those overlooked opportunities that could be gold mines for your business. Chris reveals a startling statistic: "91% of $18 billion is wasted" on leads that never get a conversation. This episode uncovers how this massive waste could be your next big opportunity. Helen and Chris dissect the challenges of following up on inbound leads and discuss innovative strategies to breathe life into these sleeping giants of sales potential.
Some of the key points covered in part 1 of this conversation include:
Definition and origin of dormant leads
Statistics on conversation coverage for inbound leads
Importance of quick response times to inbound leads
Comparison of web form submissions vs. inbound phone calls
Introduction to ConnectAndSell's Instant Response and Lead Injection features

In this episode, we get into the heart of human connection with our special guest, Stephen Oommen. From tech giants like Microsoft to the challenging streets of Oklahoma, Stephen shares how he turned adversity into a superpower of empathy and connection. Hear how personal struggles forged a unique ability to relate to anyone, anywhere. Stephen reveals his secrets for authentic engagement in a world of artificial interactions.
Chris Beall unpacks the parallels between Stephen's approach and the art of cold calling, offering insights that will transform how you view sales and relationship-building. This conversation goes beyond tactics, exploring the impact of genuine curiosity and love for people in both personal and professional spheres.
Prepare to be moved and inspired to reconsider how you connect with others in an age where true human interaction has become a rare and valuable commodity. Join us for this episode: EP244: The Chameleon's Secret: Revolutionizing Cold Calling and Sales

AI has the potential to revolutionize sales management by providing insights from aggregated conversations, freeing up time for managers to focus on coaching and engaging with their teams more effectively.
Chris Beall and Helen Fanucci dive deeper into the evolving world of sales management in the era of AI. They explore how artificial intelligence can revolutionize coaching strategies and provide valuable insights from countless sales conversations. Helen emphasizes that "it's not enough to just give the sellers goals. The managers have to continue to be engaged to get the outcomes expected." Chris and Helen discuss the potential for AI to give managers back time to do their "real job" - identifying and executing on coaching opportunities. They touch on the emotional challenges of leadership, with Chris noting that "the higher up you go in an organization, the more you're emotionally challenged every day." This episode offers a forward-thinking look at how AI can empower sales leaders to focus on what truly matters: developing their teams and driving results in an increasingly complex business landscape. Listen to this episode: AI-Powered Coaching: The Future of Sales Management.
Listen to the first part of this conversation.
Listen to all episodes with Helen Fanucci as their guest.
Links from this episode:
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell

In this episode, Chris Beall welcomes back Helen Fanucci, founder and CEO of Pipeline Power, to explore the evolving world of sales management and AI-driven insights. Helen shares a startling statistic: "17% of the reps deliver 81% of the revenue," setting the stage for a deep dive into boosting team performance. The conversation reveals how AI, particularly ChatGPT, can revolutionize sales conversation analysis, offering quick and insightful skills assessments. Chris and Helen emphasize the importance of "getting messy with data" and how AI empowers sales managers to focus on critical aspects of their role. They discuss the shift from traditional quota-chasing to strategic market share capture, highlighting the value of early relationship-building in the sales process. This episode offers CEOs and sales leaders practical strategies to leverage AI and data for more effective sales management and market dominance.
Links from this episode:
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell

In this final segment with Brian Perks, Corey Frank, and Chris Beall, the conversation takes a fascinating turn into the human side of data-driven sales. They explore the delicate balance between leveraging advanced AI and maintaining genuine human connections. Brian shares insights on the power of sincerity in sales, while Chris delves into the psychology of risk in business relationships. The trio discusses the evolution of sales from mere territory management to building trust in a world where vendors can make or break careers. They touch on the importance of emotional intelligence in data interpretation and the art of restraint in using information. This episode is a must-listen for sales leaders looking to navigate the complex interplay of technology, data, and human psychology in modern sales. Join them for "The Human Element in Data-Driven Sales: Sincerity, Risk, and Trust."
Listen to the full series with Brian Perks here.
 
Links from this episode:
5x5Brian Perks on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell

In this second episode of a visit with Chris, Corey, and guest Brian Perks they dissect the evolving landscape of data, innovation, and sales in the modern economy. They explore how utility-like standardization is reshaping industries, drawing parallels between electricity and data as foundational infrastructures. The conversation weaves through the challenges faced by innovators, the importance of reasoning in a data-rich world, and the potential for AI to enhance decision-making. Brian offers insights on the future of shared scientific innovation and data resources, while Chris and Corey tackle the complexities of avoiding reasoning errors in high-stakes business decisions.
With a mix of analogies ranging from 737 pilots to Wile E. Coyote moments, the trio unpacks why clear thinking is crucial in a world where data utilities can make or break a startup. And just when you think it's all serious business talk, Chris reminds us that sometimes, all an entrepreneur really needs is for someone to walk in with a cold Alaskan amber. It's a deep dive into the world of B2B sales and data strategy that'll leave you pondering - and possibly thirsty. Join us for this episode, “Wile E. Coyote, Data Utilities and Empty Beer Bottles.”
Links from this episode:
5x5Brian Perks on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell

Corey Frank and Chris Beall welcome Brian Perks from 5x5, a revolutionary data cooperative. They dive deep into the changing data landscape in sales and marketing, exploring how traditional data brokerage models are becoming obsolete. Brian shares insights on 5x5's innovative approach to data as a utility, emphasizing the importance of data standardization, accuracy, and accessibility. The conversation touches on the challenges of fragmented data across various platforms and how 5x5 aims to solve these issues. The guys discuss the concept of data as a living, evolving entity and the importance of having your copy for innovation. This episode is a must-listen for sales leaders, marketers, and entrepreneurs looking to leverage data for business growth in today's fast-paced, data-driven world. Join them for this episode, “The Evolution of Business Data Transformed From Brokers to Utilities.”
Links from this episode:
5x5Brian Perks on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell

In this unique episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall flies solo to unveil the blueprint for a revolutionary concept: the selling machine. As innovation accelerates and markets expand globally, Chris argues that a systematic approach to sales is not just beneficial—it's essential. He outlines a framework that transforms the traditional go-to-market strategy, making it more efficient, scalable, and cost-effective. Hat tip to Branch 49 and Corey Frank's team. This episode is a goldmine for innovators, startup founders, and sales leaders looking to bridge the gap between groundbreaking ideas and market success. Chris breaks down the components of a selling machine, from crafting the perfect offer to scaling operations, all while emphasizing the human elements that drive results. Join Chris for this episode, "The Innovator's Guide to Building a Foolproof Selling Machine."
Here's a unique gift from this episode - an outline of Chris' plan for building a sales machine. You'll have to listen to the full episode to get the details, but this gives you a way to follow along:
Define the offer:
Draw a circle with an arrow pointing right
Identify the beneficiary (stick figure)
Determine the unit of value delivered
Estimate the monetary value for the beneficiary
Identify the "flying car" (hard part) of the innovation:
Use AI or other resources to find a solution
Build a simple version to solve the core problem
Address potential objections:
Anticipate why conservative buyers might reject the offer
Prepare answers to these objections
Identify and describe all dependencies - more lines in the circle
Generate a usable list of potential customers:
Use available data to create a hypothetical list
Sort by title and remove obvious false positives
Choose a calibrated conversationalist:
Use a service like Branch 49 if needed
Test the message:
Aim for a 5% conversion rate on cold calls
Modify the message if necessary
Conduct discovery meetings:
Close these into reference customers
Offer additional support to early adopters
Scale the selling machine:
Start with one conversationalist, then add a second
Continue scaling to groups of eight with proper management
Implement follow-up systems:
Call those who don't attend scheduled meetings
Set up quarterly follow-ups for those not initially interested
Refine and segment lists based on interactions
Involve subject matter experts (SMEs):
Bring in founders or other experts after successful discovery meetings
Generate more subject matter experts as needed
Develop materials to transmit expertise without constant human involvement
 

In this episode, Chris Beall poses a provocative question that challenges the very structure of sales departments. What if companies didn't need traditional in-house sales teams at all?
Sounds radical, right? But Chris takes us on a thoughtful journey through the potential of outsourced sales. From list building to discovery calls, he explores how specialist expertise could revolutionize each step of the process.
Using his experience at ConnectAndSell and citing innovative approaches from companies like Branch 49, Chris makes a case for keeping only subject matter experts in-house. He backs his ideas with real-world examples and data, showing how modern technology enables this shift.
This episode might just transform how you think about sales team structure and efficiency in the modern business landscape. Join us for this episode, "Goodbye, Sales Department? Chris Beall's Provocative Proposal."

In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall challenges conventional wisdom about pre-call research in cold calling. Drawing from a recent real-world experience, Chris dives deep into the mathematics and psychology behind sales conversations.
Is extensive research before each call truly beneficial, or could it hinder your team's effectiveness? Chris presents a compelling case that might surprise even seasoned sales professionals. He explores the delicate balance between being informed and being presumptuous and how this impacts your prospects' crucial emotional journey.
Whether you're a sales trainer, leader, or CSO, this episode offers fresh insights that could revolutionize your approach to cold calling and discovery meetings. Chris breaks down the true goals of these interactions and provides a framework for achieving them more efficiently.
Prepare to challenge your assumptions and discover a potentially game-changing perspective on pre-call research and sales strategy.
Here is the math from this episode:
Conversation Statistics for Chris' Team That Day:
Total conversations: 438
Total meetings set: 30
Total dials: 12,522
Dial-to-connect ratio: 28.59 dials per conversation (12,522 / 438)
Average conversation length: 78 seconds
Research Time vs Conversation Time: Let R = research time per dial attempt Let C = average conversation time Let D = dials per conversation
Research time per conversation = R * D Conversation time = C
Equation: R * D : C
Using the numbers provided: 3 minutes * 28.59 : 78 seconds 180 seconds * 28.59 : 78 seconds 5,146.2 seconds:  78 seconds
This simplifies to approximately 66 seconds of research to achieve 1 second of conversation
Chris rounds this to 90 minutes (5,400 seconds) of research to achieve 78 seconds of conversation
Research to Conversation Ratio: Research time : Conversation time = 5,400 : 78 Simplified ratio ≈ 69 : 1
This means for every 69 seconds spent on research, only 1 second is spent in actual conversation.
Efficiency Calculation: If a rep makes 60 dials per day: 60 dials / 28.59 dials per conversation ≈ 2.1 conversations per day
Actual performance: 438 conversations / 22 reps ≈ 19.91 conversations per rep per day

In this episode, Chris Beall gives us a manufacturing-inspired blueprint for supercharging your sales pipeline. Chris breaks down the process into actionable steps, from refining your contact lists to calibrating your sales team's performance. He shares a powerful Excel technique for rapidly improving list quality and introduces the concept of "Flight Schools" to perfect those crucial first 7 seconds of cold calls. 
By treating pipeline generation as a precision manufacturing process, complete with quality control measures and continuous improvement cycles, Chris offers CSOs, sales managers, and reps a systematic approach to boost conversions and minimize wasted effort. Listen to this episode, "Calibrating Your Sales Machine: Techniques for Optimizing Pipeline Generation."
Listen to the full Mental Models series here.

In this episode of our Mental Models series, Chris kicks off by comparing sales processes to a manufacturing line, where quality at each step is crucial. But he quickly switches to a meatier topic: the role of "the guesser" in business decision-making. "Time is never our friend," Chris warns as he unpacks why every organization needs a designated decision-maker for those moments when the clock's ticking and information is scarce. He dives into the challenges of this role, from avoiding its use as a "political weapon" to ensuring the guesser has the trust and authority to act. Chris even draws parallels to a batter facing a pitch in the majors, illustrating the split-second nature of these decisions. Whether you're a sales leader or a professional navigating uncertain terrain, Chris's insights on decisive action in the face of uncertainty offer a fresh perspective on leadership and strategy in this episode, “Split-Second Sales: Mastering the Art of the Educated Guess.”
 

In this next episode of our Mental Models series, Chris tackles two critical aspects of modern sales strategy. He begins by examining the 'do nothing' competitor - often your most formidable adversary. Chris uses vivid analogies to illustrate why prospects cling to the status quo, invoking the familiar and ominous warning that 'Winter is Coming.' He then explains how to position your solution as a complementary, hybrid approach rather than a disruptive replacement.
Chris then explores how AI tools, particularly ChatGPT, revolutionize sales operations. He shares practical, step-by-step techniques for using AI to expand your target lists, refine your sales scripts, and challenge your existing mental models. Drawing from his daily use of ChatGPT, Chris offers insights on staying ahead of the curve and avoiding mental ruts.
Throughout the episode, Chris examines the balance between embracing new technologies and respecting established business practices, all while focusing on improving your sales effectiveness in an ever-evolving market landscape. Join him for this episode, "Breaking the Spell of 'Do Nothing': AI Tools for the Modern Sales Warrior."
Links from this episode:
RightBound
5 Sentences That Will Change Your Life
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell
 

In this episode of our Mental Models series, Chris dives into the crucial topic of strategic positioning and the competitive landscape. Chris dissects how to effectively align team mental models, using ConnectAndSell as a real-world example. He explores the concept of positioning against alternatives, emphasizing the importance of complementary strategies and differentiating based on customer mission achievement. This episode offers valuable insights for businesses looking to refine their market approach in an increasingly competitive landscape.

In this brief episode, Market Dominance Guys' Chris Beall introduces some intriguing ideas about the crucial role of mental models in achieving market dominance. He touches on how our biases shape these models, the importance of learning over mere execution, and even hints at a mysterious new product born from an AI collaboration. But this is just the beginning - the full exploration is yet to come. Join us next time when Chris and Corey delve deeper into reshaping mental models, aligning teams, and potentially transforming our approach to market dominance. After this glimpse, you won't want to miss the wealth of insights coming your way. 

Are you ready to sculpt your way to market dominance? In this episode, Chris Beall embarks on a solo journey to explore the art of crafting your perfect target list. He's also apologizing to you for glossing over this essential aspect of your sales strategy, and now he's determined to make things right. Just like Michelangelo's David, your ideal market is hidden within a huge block of data, waiting to be unveiled. But unlike marble, this data is more like clay - you can always add a bit back if you trim off too much. Chris will be your guide as you shape and mold your list, navigating the tricky landscape of false positives and negatives and using conversations as your tools to refine your market-dominating masterpiece. So, roll up your sleeves and get ready to get your hands dirty - it's time to uncover your own David (and no, we're not talking about the statue's abs). Join us for this episode, “Michelangelo's Market Dominance Secret for Sculpting Your List."
Links from this episode:
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell

In this episode, Corey Frank and Chris Beall explore the power of conversations as the key to thriving in a future sales market increasingly clogged by AI. As digital channels become oversaturated and ineffective, the skilled rep emerges as the crucial resource, capable of navigating the uncrowded paths to success. Chris emphasizes that the robustness of results always sticks to where there is a constraint of nature, and in sales, that constraint is the skilled rep. While AI continues to congest the digital highways, there remains a parallel freeway that no one is driving on – one that can only be accessed through genuine, trust-building conversations. Corey and Chris discuss how to manufacture and curate these conversations over time, ultimately leading to market dominance by owning the digital freeway. Join them for this episode, “Navigating the AI-Clogged Digital Highway in Sales.”
Links from this episode:
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell

In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank dive into how sales reps can inadvertently end up working for their competitors by blowing the trust built in the discovery call. When a prospect agrees to a meeting, they're extending trust. But if the rep rushes into a transactional mode, focusing more on their own agenda, they risk shattering that trust. Chris emphasizes that once trust is broken, it's nearly impossible to regain, and the rep may have just handed a well-educated prospect to the competition. Tune in as Chris and Corey explore how to navigate discovery calls and build lasting trust with your prospects in this episode, “Blowing the Trust: Are you working for your competitor?”
Key takeaways from this episode:
Blowing the trust built in a discovery call is like working for your competitor. If you rush into a transactional mode, you risk shattering the trust and handing a well-educated prospect to your competition.
Trust can be built in as little as seven seconds by demonstrating tactical empathy and competence in solving the prospect's problem. However, trust can be easily lost by trying to sell too quickly.
Many sales reps come from "intensity professions" where the default response to a challenge is to push harder. This can lead to reps pouncing on prospects and blowing trust.
Senior management should listen to actual sales calls, not just digest boiled-down reports. Hearing the conversations can reveal issues like reps being too hurried or dismissive of prospects.
Compensation plans that focus on short-term results can inadvertently encourage reps to work for the competition by blowing trust for quick wins.
Modeling behavior is crucial. Managers should treat their team members in the same way they expect reps to treat prospects – not as a competition, but as collaborators.
Skilled reps who can navigate the challenges of a conversation are a critical constraint. Coaching and upskilling reps to have better conversations is key.
AI and automation can provide short-term gains, but without the constraint of skilled reps, these approaches can quickly saturate and become ineffective, like a clogged freeway.
Conversations are the universal currency of sales. Upskilling reps to have high-value conversations is like creating a valuable commodity that can be applied across many situations.
Links from this episode:
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell

You know what they say about humor in sales? It's like playing with fire. You might warm up the room or burn the whole deal down. In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Richard Rabins, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank get into the weeds about using humor across different cultures.
Can you just translate your best one-liners and expect them to land in Japan or Germany? Think again. Richard has some stories about navigating the global sales landscape and is not afraid to admit where he's crashed and burned. But he also has some serious wisdom about how to build trust with prospects, no matter where they're from.
Tune in to hear about the importance of noticing the little things, playing the long game, and always, always doing your homework. If you're in B2B or SaaS sales, this episode is no joke - you'll come away with some practical tips and insights that just might help you dominate your market. So what are you waiting for? Let's get into this episode, “Laughter Lost in Translation - Navigating Humor in Global Sales.”
 
About our Guest:
Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com.
Links from this episode:
The full series with Richard Rabins here.
Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/
Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
[00:43:33] Corey Frank: Well, you had said many, many times that outbound is about playing the [00:43:40] long game. To be good at outbound, it's about the long game. And I think part and parcel of that, Richard, is what you're talking about is, if I'm going to be immersed in this craft, in this profession, I've got to be an expert noticer of the residue.
[00:43:58] Corey Frank: We always talk about the false [00:44:00] negatives that happen. And the sales that I didn't get. Not necessarily the sales I did get. What are the nuances of why I didn't get that sale? All of us, if we had a DeLorean, especially if you're in our profession. We would immediately make hundreds of stops at all the sales calls [00:44:20] we blew early in our career to right the wrongs, to tweak the pitch that we know now, and Chris, especially you and Richard, that you guys do so effortlessly, I think.
[00:44:33] Corey Frank: And that concept of playing the long game , where your [00:44:40] confidence is. is accelerated by knowing that there's nobody that's going to take the hook and take me out of my profession if I don't want to. I know I'm going to be in chemistry, , the gal, the situation that you had mentioned, Richard.
[00:44:57] Corey Frank: So whether it's Caltech or [00:45:00] MIT or Scottsdale Community College. I'm going to play the long game and I'm going to do an end around or a flanking. It doesn't have to be a full frontal fast track to the top. 
[00:45:11] Richard Rabins: Yeah. Another thing that Chris said is, it's kind of off topic, but you can't tell somebody that you're smart [00:45:20] and on their side.
[00:45:22] Richard Rabins: That's not credible. And you've got to earn it through your actions. And what I've found in life. The minute somebody's telling me about something and they use the word, trust me, that's the last person you should trust. Anybody who has to [00:45:40] enunciate that, it's, it's, it's something you've got to earn.
[00:45:46] Richard Rabins: You can't tell somebody to trust you. And I speak from experience. I've been, I'm basically, I like people and I like to assume that people are good and [00:46:00] most people are, but not everybody. And just so I think with a lot of prospects for good reason initially, or there's the barrier and it's a defensive barrier.
[00:46:14] Richard Rabins: And it's totally legitimate on their part. The, the art [00:46:20] of penetrating that barrier, it's not trivial. And the other thing humorous grade and whatever, whatever you're selling, you've got to do your homework, you've got to know what you're talking about, because you've got to assume that most people are pretty smart.[00:46:40] 
[00:46:40] Richard Rabins: I mean, I found that from the days when I, we did market research in my first company and we were sending consumer products typically to young girls like shampoo. But the minute one of the consumer product companies try to pull a fast one [00:47:00] and start making claims that were not accurate or, or the advertising, didn't treat people with a sense of intelligence.
[00:47:12] Richard Rabins: People are actually smart and people are instinctive. They pick up on BS and, [00:47:20] I mean, that's got nothing to do with humor. That's just a general observation, but I guess the lesson is you don't want to game the system. You've got to do the homework. You've got to, you've got to know about your product, especially if it's a somewhat technical product.
[00:47:35] Richard Rabins: If you can't answer some core questions, it's [00:47:40] you're not respectful of the other person's time because they're not, you're not able to impart any useful information. And, and so each, if you expect somebody to talk to you again, if they got nothing out of the first call, why on earth would they want to talk to you [00:48:00] again?
[00:48:00] Chris Beall: We just had one of those actually, Helen and I took a meeting. I took a meeting from a cold call on a topic that would have been of interest to both of us, given her business, Pipeline Power and the one that I run, ConnectAndSell. And so we sat next to each other kind of like this. Richard and I are going to [00:48:20] limit how far that goes, but, and and we, we were on with this very, very pleasant young guy who had been a seller for another company that I know.
[00:48:31] Chris Beall: And now, he's selling for this particular company, telling us some stuff. He knew the answer to exactly zero of the questions that we [00:48:40] asked. He was very pleasant. He was personable. And he said, he'd go find out, but after the fourth, I'll go find out. It's I don't even want to hear from his boss.
[00:48:48] Chris Beall: Because what it's like, why did you put somebody in the front lines who literally doesn't know anything except the simplest script about what it is that your product supposedly [00:49:00] does a little less than I could have read on the website in 11 seconds. You have it's it's a delicate dance. I mean, getting trust.
[00:49:09] Chris Beall: This whole podcast is about one thing. I'll just remind everybody, gentle listeners, well, those of you who aren't so gentle, you can go over there. [00:49:20] Gentle listeners, I'll remind you, Market Dominance, this podcast is about two things. One, paving your market with trust. Two, harvesting that trust over the 12 quarters that it's going to take.
[00:49:37] Chris Beall: For everybody in that market to make a [00:49:40] decision about replacing what they do now that you could help them with, with what you could help them with. That is the replacement cycle for everything in B2B is about three years. Some things longer, if you're selling commercial real estate, or you're buying office buildings medical office buildings like, Henry does.[00:50:00] 
[00:50:00] Chris Beall: Anybody who wants to catch those episodes, those are good ones. Then you might have five years, six years, seven years, but it doesn't get much better than three years. You've got to play the long game, not because of some moral reason, it's because it's the only game. In the perfect scenario, only one twelfth of your [00:50:20] market is in the market this quarter.
[00:50:21] Chris Beall: In the perfect scenario. That's with no false negatives. That's with no blown chances. That's the perfect scenario. So what are you going to do in the other 11 quarters? Well, you better do something this quarter, which is get somebody to trust you. And then [00:50:40] as Chris Voss said, when I asked him, how long will they trust you?
[00:50:43] Chris Beall: He said forever until you blow it. So don't blow it. It's actually, this is pretty simple stuff. So the humor part of it is. It's somewhere between a technique and bedrock. [00:51:00] That is, if you're confident enough because you're studied up enough, and you're honest enough to tell somebody what's wrong with your product, which is actually the key to being seen as an expert, is to tell them what circumstance it won't work for them, honestly.
[00:51:15] Chris Beall: Experts do that. Charlatans don't. You might notice [00:51:20] charlatans very rarely tell you what's gonna go bad okay, if you're studied up enough to do that, and you're humble enough to recognize that you don't know all the things even about the application of your own product, you can afford to be funny when it makes sense to be funny.
[00:51:38] Chris Beall: And I [00:51:40] know that's what? I'm going to study to be funny by learning my product deeply and then getting the confidence to actually be an expert who even tells people what might not go great? Yes, that's the groundwork of being able to use humor. If you use humor from a surface perspective, as a trick, [00:52:00] as a magic trick, you will be strung up by serious people in your audience.
[00:52:07] Chris Beall: They're the ones they really care about. They aren't going to go with it. And so it's, it's a delicate thing. I was at General Electric once, when I was called by a very senior person there, who just called me out of the blue and said, it was [00:52:20] Friday. Said, Chris, I'm so and so from General Electric Company.
[00:52:25] Chris Beall: We've heard about your product. It was an electronic catalog for parts, like engineering parts. Heard about your product. We want to see it. Please come here Monday and present to us at 11 o'clock. This was at their headquarters [00:52:40] in Connecticut. And send somebody who can speak for your company. That's a pretty interesting thing to hear, right?
[00:52:47] Chris Beall: We're a very young company, we don't have a lot of cash, we have something we've just built, how did this guy hear about it? A dumb thing to do would be to say, how did you hear about our product? Smart thing to do, it turned out, was say, yeah, [00:53:00] I'll be there, right? So now the question is, well, how does a meeting go?
[00:53:04] Chris Beall: And would you dare be funny in a meeting like that? So I walk into the meeting, got my VP of sales with me, I've got my, my boss with me. And they go around the table, and these people are deadly serious. It's boom, boom, [00:53:20] boom. This is the General Electric Company, right? Mouse traps are snappin mice are dyin it's a, it's a thing that's going on, right?
[00:53:28] Chris Beall: And I play right along with a very quick introduction, and then get up to do the presentation on the product. Now, what would have been [00:53:40] normal? What would they have expected that's not funny? That's a PowerPoint presentation. So I stood up and I said, Well, I have to confess something that I think is rather sad, and I'm hoping you'll forgive me.
[00:53:53] Chris Beall: Now, they're not expecting that, and I said, I'm so incompetent at PowerPoint that it made no [00:54:00] sense for me to come to you with a slide presentation at all, but I did take one of your division's products, all the parts that I could find, which is about 137, 222 of them, and put them into our parts catalog so we could have a look.
[00:54:17] Chris Beall: Are you interested in seeing that instead of PowerPoint? [00:54:20] Now, that is unexpected, and some of them were uncomfortable, and some of them, but a couple of them it was a little laugh, right? And then we did it. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, went through it. It was a 55 minute presentation. It was done in 37 minutes.
[00:54:36] Chris Beall: And I said, well, I have to apologize to you. I don't have any more material. [00:54:40] That's it. 
[00:54:42] Corey Frank: And 
[00:54:42] Chris Beall: then they were like, and we did a deal on the spot, literally did a deal on the spot. It went like this. It was like, okay, which one of your divisions wants to actually take this pilot? Boom. It's you. Do it. You talk to you.
[00:54:57] Chris Beall: We're done. Oh, look, we saved 9 minutes. [00:55:00] Meeting's over. They're out. Was it humor for the sake of humor? Or was it a trick? No, I was really confident that I'd change the entire world of finding parts. By the way, every time you find one of these parts, it's worth 50, 000 to the company that finds it, just for finding it, not making a new part number.
[00:55:19] Chris Beall: So I knew what [00:55:20] the value was. But then later, another funny situation, years, two years later, the Corporate Counsel of the General Electric Company calls me and says, Get out here! I'm in Colorado, they're still in Connecticut. We gotta talk. Now, I wasn't going to say, Gary, what are we going to talk about? I could tell by his tone of voice, we're going to talk about something [00:55:40] serious.
[00:55:41] Chris Beall: Hello again, jump in a plane. I go on the inside of the plane, so I don't really jump on the outside. It's uncomfortably cold at altitude, and, and, and, and, and, and Windy, Richard pointed out, I take you up to 7, 000 feet inside the plane, more than if you're 39, 000 like I was yesterday.
[00:55:57] Chris Beall: So go out there. Now, they're, [00:56:00] it's the conference room of the General Electric Company. It's the one right under Jack Welch's office. It's huge. It's imposing. for listening. The table itself made me a little bit uncomfortable. I sat there by myself for 45 minutes. Why? Because they teach that kind of stuff, right?
[00:56:16] Chris Beall: Cool your heels. Fortunately, I can entertain myself in my mind [00:56:20] easily because I do have a condition that needs to be treated. Guy walks in, sits down, starts literally pounding the table. Boom! Boom! Boom! I'm thinking, this table sounds great. I wonder where I can get a table like this. This is really, this is probably worth more than my house.
[00:56:38] Chris Beall: Boom! You [00:56:40] are destroying the General Electric Company. And I said, Well, Gary, certainly there has to be some amount of, and the General Electric Company is worth a lot, right? He just looks at me, billions. There has to be some amount of money you would like to pay me so I would stop [00:57:00] destroying the General Electric Company.
[00:57:02] Chris Beall: And he just sits there for a moment, and finally he cracks up laughing, and it's Okay, now we can have a real conversation. Now we're peers. Yeah. So that kind of, I don't know how you teach that, but sometimes just knowing, and the purpose isn't to do this and [00:57:20] you'll win deals. I think 
[00:57:22] Corey Frank: it's those little, you've iterated those benign violations.
[00:57:29] Corey Frank: that in this case provokes laughter because it was wrong, right? It could be, it clearly, it would have been unsettling, it was borderline threatening, [00:57:40] right? But it's also acceptable. I mean, it, this is like tickling or teasing or that, that little mix up or that, that, that funny thing that happens after a joke, right?
[00:57:53] Corey Frank: But it's also a thin line, right? Cause I think it's, we all agree that it's easier to, right? to fail with honor than succeed, [00:58:00] right? And it's a delicate operation, which you described, both of you, where it's built on layers of shared knowledge and, and a lot of innuendo. And but you know your crowd, you know your audience, but if you do that, that benign violation, I [00:58:20] think, think, thing works.
[00:58:22] Corey Frank: There is a, there's a quote I'm trying to dig up here, and I think this is it, it's from an anthropologist, Edward Hall, who I think came up in one of our episodes a while ago, because he was quoted a lot in Sapiens, and he says, I'm quoting from Edward Hall, the [00:58:40] anthropologist, If you can learn the humor of a people, and really control it.
[00:58:46] Corey Frank: You know that you are also in control of nearly everything else. And we talked about this yesterday when we talked about cultural differences of selling to the [00:59:00] Japanese. Richard, you've tried, you've sold all the real differences in South Africa, certainly the differences in Europe or, or etc. And but I think what, what Edward Hall was saying is that and even the example you gave of of of the, the English coming in and negotiating [00:59:20] with Gandhi and Nehru, et cetera Richard, is that if I know that this is acceptable in a culture to laugh, poke fun, be nuanced, innuendo about, then I almost have this little unlock code, this cheat code that I'm in the know and that it's [00:59:40] okay to, to, to, to laugh at.
[00:59:43] Corey Frank: So let's end with, with your final thoughts on that.
[00:59:49] Richard Rabins: Well I think it's interesting, the cultural stuff is fascinating. And I think there's two [01:00:00] opposing themes. One is, I think there's some core human behavior that just has to belong to all eight billion people. But, I was mentioning last night that, in the English language, [01:00:20] the concept of somebody being responsible for something and potentially being at fault for something is well established.
[01:00:29] Richard Rabins: So if there's a vase on the table, you knock over, you are at fault and you say to your host, [01:00:40] terribly sorry, I did this. Can I replace it? Or something like that. But you are at fault. In, in the Japanese language, the concept of being at fault like that doesn't exist. What they would say is the vase fell over.
[01:00:56] Richard Rabins: without any assignment of who was responsible for the [01:01:00] bars falling over. And I think that probably translates into stuff that people find funny. So I guess the point is, if you are going to use humor in a different culture, say and I'd say largely, US, UK, Australia, It's, it's more similar [01:01:20] than, than different that's fine, but if if you're going to use it, say in Japan or some other place, you really have to do your homework because as you said, there's some level of risk in, if you use humor, not using humor as a straight path, it's a low risk path, [01:01:40] using humor is somewhat riskier, but also often necessary if you're trying to penetrate it's if, if you're facing a immovable brick wall, and everything else isn't working, humor, but, but you've got to, you've got to do your [01:02:00] homework.
[01:02:00] Richard Rabins: Okay. and understand that it may not always work. 
[01:02:05] Chris Beall: Yeah. I got a rule for you. If you're traveling, I used to do a lot of business in other places, right? India, China, Japan, Europe, all over the place. When you're in a, in another culture and every company you go [01:02:20] into is actually another culture and you're going to make fun of something, make sure you're making fun of yourself.
[01:02:28] Chris Beall: Don't presume that it's safe to make fun of anything or any person. other than yourself. 
[01:02:36] Corey Frank: Yeah. Other than myself or yourself. Because everywhere I go, I seem to have a [01:02:40] good traction when I make fun of you or you're talking to myself. 
[01:02:44] Chris Beall: Yeah. Well, I mean, this is what it means to be a sidekick. I am your sidekick.
[01:02:48] Chris Beall: You can make fun of me. That's why the kick part is in there. Otherwise I 
[01:02:53] Corey Frank: thought I was the foil. I thought that's the role that I play. So 
[01:02:58] Chris Beall: since we're confused about [01:03:00] our roles. I really don't know how we're going to get through this, but we hope for forgiveness from the audience and from Richard, who has to show up and have a laugh with us.
[01:03:10] Corey Frank: Absolutely. Well, Richard, final thoughts on your inaugural appearance on the Market Dominance, guys, man, the wisdom. [01:03:20] The tips and it's, 
[01:03:23] Richard Rabins: I've had a lot of fun just listening to this and, I think if you respect people, you like people, and you wanna engage with people, you're gonna, you're gonna [01:03:40] learn something, always gonna learn something.
[01:03:42] Richard Rabins: And I, I, I certainly didn't come up with this, but whoever came up with that's why human beings were given. Two ears and one mouth and that's kind of the, probably the ratio of stuff you really got to listen to and, and everybody's [01:04:00] interesting, everybody's got a story.
[01:04:01] Richard Rabins: I, I love, like when I go to a restaurant and one thing that's interesting, the waiter will come up to you and ask you how you're doing, et cetera. Invariably I'll say, I'm doing fine. Thank you. How are you doing? And it's surprising how many people are taken back [01:04:20] by that because it's not that common.
[01:04:22] Richard Rabins: And it's like you, you actually asked me how I'm doing. I'm serving you. It's yeah, how are you doing? I wanna know how you're doing. And I've had wonderful conversations with them. Waiters in restaurants and stuff like that. And, [01:04:40] everything's just a learning experience. But it does come, I really like your comment about noticing.
[01:04:47] Richard Rabins: It's, it's little details, can make huge differences.
[01:04:57] Corey Frank: Absolutely. Well, that's, that's just great. Well, I tell you [01:05:00] what Chris, we, we could have got to get Stephen right on next, I think maybe Conan and Brian, because I really think that It is a secret weapon. As we were talking, the three of us were talking offline yesterday and today, and I think there's something to deconstruct that and putting folks folks through the [01:05:20] crucible in a safe environment about how to test it.
[01:05:24] Corey Frank: And much like you gave, James Thornburg does it over and over again, till his timing is just impeccable. That's something I think we should look forward to in future Market Dominance podcasts is this how to leverage humor for for success. [01:05:40] Final thoughts to you, Chris. 
[01:05:44] Chris Beall: Well, I just happen to know something about Richard, and he's not gonna confess it, so I'm just gonna say it, which is, he keeps saying he loves he likes people.
[01:05:52] Chris Beall: Trust me, he likes dogs better. 
[01:05:55] Richard Rabins: It's true. I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll end on, on one thing [01:06:00] is often you say to somebody what, what your end ultimate dream, what do you want to do? And if I could open up a dog shelter, I'd be in in heaven, totally. Really? Yeah. Oh, 
[01:06:15] Corey Frank: That's awesome. That's great.
[01:06:17] Corey Frank: That's great. I will look for that. [01:06:20] If you need any volunteers, I think I could be persuaded to do that as well. Well as long as we're in the subject of sharing, my, my, my future endeavor is to be a short order cook at a truck stop, because I like doing things like that. Chris you're, you're next.
[01:06:38] Corey Frank: What's the what's the, [01:06:40] what's the, what's the dream gig? Dog shelter, short order cook, and 
[01:06:45] Chris Beall: Oh, the dream gig is being a pied piper of barefoot running in Quail Creek, Arizona. If I can pull that off, I'm in heaven. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. 
[01:06:56] Corey Frank: Well, okay. Well, this has been a multi faceted, multi topic Market [01:07:00] Dominance Guys episode.
[01:07:02] Corey Frank: So Richard, thank you for your time and for Chris Beall and the rest of the Market Dominance crew behind the scenes. This is Corey Frank. Until next time. 
[01:07:11] Richard Rabins: Thanks a lot, Corey. 

In the second part of our conversation with Richard Rabins, CEO and Co-Founder of Alpha Software, we delve into the delicate balance of using humor effectively in sales. Chris Beall shares insights on guiding prospects through emotional transitions, from fear to trust, using the power of laughter and surprise. However, the discussion also explores the risks of pushing humor too far and the importance of knowing when to rein it in. Richard and Corey examine the idea of teaching humor, drawing parallels between sales and the world of comedy and performance. They emphasize the significance of confidence, vulnerability, and the ability to read your audience to avoid alienating prospects. Join us as we navigate the comedic conundrum of harnessing wit without crossing the line, and discover how to strike the perfect balance for building genuine relationships with prospects.
About our Guest:
Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com.
Links from this episode:
Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/
Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
[00:25:51] Corey Frank: Sure. I think you're getting into a different level of rapport building, Chris, I think it'd be a good reminder to talk about the [00:26:00] swirling blue orb and the, the reason why that works, because I think that ties in a lot of what Richard is saying here with regards to, building that, that rapport, which in essence is.
[00:26:13] Corey Frank: Moving from fear to trust, is it not? 
[00:26:16] Chris Beall: Right, I mean, we're always trying to help somebody along this [00:26:20] this emotional journey to a next emotional state where we can maybe help them see something new that might be of value to them. So it's always just one emotional transition. So fear to trust is one, trust to curiosity is another, curiosity to commitment is another.
[00:26:38] Chris Beall: And emotional [00:26:40] transitions are tricky things. We actually prefer to hold on to our current emotional state, even if we don't like it, because it is a comfort to us To feel as we feel. We really don't want to change anything in our life, much less how we feel. So in sales, we're trying to help somebody [00:27:00] change something in their life.
[00:27:01] Chris Beall: And if we cold call them, that something is, they're afraid of us. And we want to help them change that to being trusting of us, right? And it's actually why the second sentence in the breakthrough script that we teach. The one right after throwing yourself under the bus, which is raising the [00:27:20] tension, and it is surprising, to this little piece of relief, and it has the chuckle in it.
[00:27:24] Chris Beall: By the way, when people laugh, other people laugh. Right? Nobody knows why you're laughing, but you laugh because others are laughing. Laughter is, as they say, contagious in the same way that yawning is, but in a way that sneezing is not. At least, we hope, right? It ain't to sneeze [00:27:40] and have everybody in the room suddenly sneeze.
[00:27:42] Chris Beall: I mean, you might get a pandemic or something like that. But this, this business I know I'm an interruption. I mean, nobody expects to hear that. And, and almost nobody in sales, by the way, is confident enough to throw themselves all the way under the bus and have it [00:28:00] go ba bump, ba bump, ba bump, because buses, by the way, have that many sets of wheels, and then it backs up over you and goes ba bump, ba bump, 
[00:28:07] Richard Rabins: ba 
[00:28:07] Chris Beall: bump, right?
[00:28:08] Chris Beall: Now you're really under the bus. And then how do you switch your voice sincerely to being playful? A playful and curious voice is what allows somebody to have that relief. [00:28:20] from your initial statement, which is you throwing yourself under the bus, which creates tension. You talk often, Corey, about tension being important in sales.
[00:28:30] Chris Beall: Well, the story that starts out with, I just ambushed you, has got tension built into it, but it has more tension if you amplify it verbally. I know I'm an interruption. [00:28:40] And then you change your voice to PlayfulCuriousCat. Can I at 27 seconds tell you why I called? If you really want to see this in action, hear this in action over and over, just go out to James Thornburg's LinkedIn profile and listen to one James Thornburg video after another.
[00:28:58] Chris Beall: He will often end one [00:29:00] that's really brutal. He has a recent one that has somebody at the very end just going off on him, and he has to bleep most of it out. But right before that, he does his standard, what would you say to that at the end, which is so is it okay if I end this with the joke? What do you call five coal collars at the bottom of the ocean?
[00:29:19] Chris Beall: And [00:29:20] we only ever hear his side. Pause. He says, a good start. And then he goes on, right? Well, he says it, and it's really funny, because James Thornburg has great comedic timing. And he's very, very dry. He's the Stephen Wright of sales, of cold calling, right? He is a funny guy who can talk to you also about [00:29:40] slaughtering pigs, and make that seem somewhat amusing, even though that's a serious business.
[00:29:44] Chris Beall: So he raises pigs. It turns out he doesn't, he doesn't go slaughter other people's pigs. He kind of sticks to his own, right? It says he and his pigs have an agreement. This is how it's going to end. I have an animal example, by the way. This one [00:30:00] back in the first days of COVID, literally the very first days, Helen, who was at Microsoft, was on a happy hour.
[00:30:09] Chris Beall: They used to do this. They called them like team happy hours and everybody was introducing their pets and I was somewhere else in the room where I couldn't be seen, but it's a [00:30:20] happy hour. So alcohol is going to be involved and I'm listening and I'm just wondering where she is going to go when they come to the pet thing because Helen doesn't have any pets and what she says, I didn't anticipate.
[00:30:34] Chris Beall: It was funny to me, but I managed to participate. by Pantomime. Pantomime can be pretty funny, [00:30:40] actually, if you are lucky enough to get a chance. She says, well, everybody's been showing their pets. I actually don't have, well, I actually do have an animal. He's 6 '1 goes 2' 15 and at that point I walk up with a bottle of Blanton's and pour her a shot.
[00:30:57] Chris Beall: She says he fetches. And, [00:31:00] and he pours. That's funny. So he fetches and he pours became a trope joke, actually, and has run ever since then. Covid's now, that part is 3 years behind us, right? And it's still pretty funny. Fetches and pours, and that became a trope joke. kind of how I was known right up until the point where she renamed me as [00:31:20] almost a thing.
[00:31:21] Chris Beall: So now I am almost a thing that fetches and pours, which makes no sense whatsoever, but is also somewhat funny. That kind of thing, it is noticing, right? What was I doing? I was noticing that this situation is evolving and I could have just not done anything, but I [00:31:40] prepped. And why did I do that? What am I selling?
[00:31:42] Chris Beall: I'm selling this. a group of people that she's now not going to go to the office with, Helen, their boss. It is cool. You can hang with her. You can bring your problems to her. You, it's a tiny contribution, [00:32:00] but it had that effect, right? By the way, what can you do to develop humor? I don't know if this works for most people, but some people when they go to stand up classes to learn standup comedy.
[00:32:11] Chris Beall: where you're being workshopped over and over and over and over and over, you're workshopping over and over in order to be able to respond to something. What [00:32:20] you're learning to do is to pay attention to what the other person says within the context and respond in a way that reframes so that the dialogue goes forward and it might get to somewhere funny.
[00:32:32] Chris Beall: And that ability to notice, respond with reframing, and take the conversation in a direction that has a [00:32:40] positive resolution. In their case, standing up is funny, that is a good thing to practice, whether you will learn to be funny by doing it, I can't say, but I can certainly say the greatest cold callers I've ever known are people who are stand up comedians.
[00:32:58] Richard Rabins: Just to add to [00:33:00] that, I had the fortune or misfortune of going to business school. And, so I get the newsletters and magazines from the school. And I noticed that they had profiled a student. [00:33:20] who had gone off and started a company and was doing really innovative, good stuff.
[00:33:26] Richard Rabins: And she was talking about her experience. This was at the Sloan School, the MIT Business School. She was talking about her experience and that the best course she [00:33:40] took was apparently they started a course where the professor, is a joint professor at the business school, but also teaches drama.
[00:33:53] Richard Rabins: She teaches theater drama. And so it's [00:34:00] You know, I mean, humor is, it's part of a performance. It's comedy part is a performance. Getting back to your question, which is a really practical, interesting question is, can you teach humor? I suspect you're not going to turn someone who innately doesn't have a [00:34:20] sense of humor into someone who does, but I think you can certainly, sand the edges significantly.
[00:34:27] Richard Rabins: And it's, it's possible you could actually. Make progress in that area.
[00:34:38] Corey Frank: Yeah, I would, I would think you [00:34:40] can with a lot of noticing practice. Like we talked about the synopsis that are broken. There's something that maybe our listeners can look at. There's a rapper by the name of, of, Harry Mack. And he was just, there's a video that you can see it on YouTube and, and TikTok and [00:35:00] Instagram.
[00:35:01] Corey Frank: And he went into the New York Yankees clubhouse and he asked them for seven random words, a raid. OpeningDay, Sandwich. It's just non sequitur type of, type of words all globbed together. And he proceeded [00:35:20] to put together an M & M 50 cent level quality reduced wrap in real time. And it was incredible to the point where You know, it's not maybe our type, type of music, but the artistry and the [00:35:40] craftsmanship that went into developing the ability to see forward.
[00:35:46] Corey Frank: Right? Writing a sonnet in real time. I have to see, okay, A, B, A, B, A, B, right? The iambic, pentameter, right? I have to see ahead two or three stanzas to make sure this is the right number. And I think [00:36:00] that people who are very good at it. Warren Claff, Chris, certainly you're a master at it. Other public speakers that we know with, with this persona, this confidence, they have this ability to almost have this matrix out of time process to see time in reverse.
[00:36:19] Corey Frank: [00:36:20] And, I, I don't know of any other way to do that, except to put yourself out there, like you were talking about, about a good standup workshop and get your butt kicked. I'm sure. As James Thornburg has documented hundreds, if not thousands, of [00:36:40] calls in his years working with ConnectAndSell and BridgePoint, is that the latter performances are much better than the earlier performances.
[00:36:52] Corey Frank: And I would bet, Richard, that you are going into a presentation today, or Chris, you going into a [00:37:00] present today, you have nothing to lose. And so you're more at ease, and you're apt, more apt to notice things that are different or unusual in the world, than if you're a newer sales rep. You're so focused on your deck, the presentation, the body language of your prospect.
[00:37:18] Corey Frank: What are your What are your [00:37:20] thoughts on, on on that? 
[00:37:23] Richard Rabins: I think that's a really interesting point that I keep thinking about, I keep coming back to the fact that you need to understand that the other person is a human being. And, And [00:37:40] anything that breaks the expectation so the expectation is you're going to come in there, give a PowerPoint, very formal.
[00:37:50] Richard Rabins: It's not, it's not like initially a fun experience. It's not unpleasant. It's not a fun experience. But if you can, walk [00:38:00] in. And let's say, depending where you are, you look out the window and you see some mountain, you say, wow I didn't realize you guys were this close. Can you ski or whatever?
[00:38:12] Richard Rabins: You immediately, you, you change the atmosphere of the room. [00:38:20] And so I do think that When you're a young, inexperienced person, you don't think you've got license to behave like a human being. You, you feel like you have to follow in a robotic fashion. And as soon as you can get rid of that sort of [00:38:40] inhibition, and, and just be more confident.
[00:38:42] Richard Rabins: And, and also I think I realize that Even if it's a really important meeting or call, that if it doesn't go well, the world doesn't end. It's not the end of the world. I mean, how many times, Malcolm Gladwell [00:39:00] the author's interesting guy. So, in one of his recent books, he talks about the concept of, you can't take yourself too seriously, that there's a, a young girl.
[00:39:15] Richard Rabins: Somewhere, she's in high school, she's really, really good at chemistry. She loves [00:39:20] chemistry and she's number one in her school in chemistry. And her dream is she wants to go to Caltech or MIT, to go and study chemistry. She applies, she doesn't get in. She thinks the world has just ended. And [00:39:40] but she ends up going to another school, very good school, chemistry, and does brilliantly.
[00:39:45] Richard Rabins: And the reality is all the kids who go to MIT or Caltech, they were always probably number one or number two in their class. maths and physics. They come to MIT and by [00:40:00] definition, 50 percent of them have to be in the bottom half of the class. There's no avoiding it. You can't, so all of a sudden she might've gotten to MIT and there was a 50 percent chance she would be in the bottom half of the class.
[00:40:16] Richard Rabins: That would do a number on her ego and her self [00:40:20] confidence. So what, what William Gladwell describes, she goes to this other school, and she's like the top student in that class, and her career blossoms because it didn't affect her, her self confidence. Firstly, the lesson there is, [00:40:40] you didn't get in, should I literally jump off the next building, or do I say, okay, Plan B, and move on, and On a more serious tone, I think they've improved this at MIT, but MIT used to have the highest suicide rate of any college [00:41:00] for exactly that reason.
[00:41:02] Richard Rabins: You get these 17, 18 year old kids, their whole sense of self is tied up in how brilliant they are. And now all of a sudden there's this wet slap across the face. And in fact, When I was there, there was a building called the Green Building, the [00:41:20] tallest building, and they had to make sure that the top of the building wasn't accessible, because it was a perfect way to jump off the building.
[00:41:31] Chris Beall: Wait a second. MIT engineers are capable of taking a car apart and reassembling it in your dorm room. Certainly they can get to an inaccessible part of [00:41:40] the 
[00:41:40] Richard Rabins: building. That's true. Well, they, they still did in fact have. the high suicide. So there was a lot of successful, but you know, it's, it just, yeah, I think the whole thing is, if you're relaxed, I think Chris alluded to, if you're relaxed, the people around you all relax.[00:42:00] 
[00:42:00] Richard Rabins: And that, that's a good thing. 
[00:42:03] Chris Beall: You gotta have the goods. I mean, this is one of the, one of the things you gotta have, right? You have to be a very serious, hardworking student of whatever it is that you're an expert in. I mean, in sales, the job is pretty simple. You're an expert who is on their [00:42:20] side.
[00:42:20] Chris Beall: That's it. It's hard to establish yourself as being on their side. Because people are naturally wary of somebody who says they're on their side. You can't just come out and say it. Hi, I'm an expert. I'm on your side. Now let me see if I can find a pen here so you can sign this deal, right? It's a, it [00:42:40] doesn't work like that.
[00:42:41] Chris Beall: You're helping somebody come by themselves to the conclusion that you're an expert and you're on their side. Well, being on their side, you don't have to be funny. It turns out. But you're showing a little bit of vulnerability by your willingness to try to be funny. That is, you're actually going out on a limb.
[00:42:58] Chris Beall: If you say something [00:43:00] that might be funny, you're exposing yourself to the criticism of why are you being funny? That's not a funny thing, right? So you're actually going a little ways toward being on their side by being willing to be funny, but you're also going a long ways to being an expert by having the confidence to be [00:43:20] funny, and those two things go together in a kind of mutually reinforcing sort of way.
[00:43:27] Chris Beall: But once you get that going, you better not go too far with either one. 
In our next episode, we wrap up our conversation with Richard Rabins and delve into the fascinating cultural differences in humor and how they can impact sales interactions. Join us as Chris and Corey share their dream retirement gigs and reveal a surprising fact about Richard's true passion that explains why he's such a master at connecting with others.

In this episode, the guys explore the art of ricocheting your way to sales success. Chris Beall and Corey Frank are joined by Richard Rabins, the CEO of Alpha Software, to discuss the power of humor in disarming prospects and humanizing interactions. As Richard shares his personal anecdotes about leveraging laughter to close deals, the group delves into the age-old question: can humor be taught, or is it an innate skill? While confidence plays a crucial role, the ability to notice and connect seemingly unrelated things emerges as a key aspect of effective humor in sales. So, whether you're a golden retriever enthusiast or just looking to add some lighthearted surprise to your sales arsenal, join us as we explore the art of the ricochet and learn how to turn dead leads into living, laughing, and buying customers. Join us for this episode, “Ricochet Your Way to Sales Success: The Power of Humor.”
Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com.
Links from this episode:
Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/
Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
[00:01:04] Corey Frank: One, two, three. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys. A Branch 49 home-based mothership version with Corey Frank.
[00:01:13] Corey Frank: And of course the Sage of Sales, the Hawking of Hawking. and the Elvis of [00:01:20] EBIT. What do you think about that? The Elvis of EBIT? No? All right, we're still working on that one. And in the studio, all the way from Boston we have Richard Rabins, the CEO of Alpha Software. Richard, thanks for coming all the way to Branch 49 to have a little fun with the Market Dominance [00:01:40] guys.
[00:01:40] Richard Rabins: Fantastic. Great to be here. Thanks.
[00:01:45] Corey Frank: As is per custom, when Chris arrives here at the Branch 49 mothership, he gets the regalia, the full regalia of my office and as I sit here on the sales floor. So as we were talking about last night at [00:02:00] at dinner and a little bit today, that bled over.
[00:02:03] Corey Frank: One of the things that came up in the GoToMarket and the Sales Market Dominance Guide Strategy Richard, with you and, , and Chris, is we were talking about different techniques in GoToMarket and the subject of, of humor came up in the subject , of Chris, I guess what we're calling [00:02:20] ricochet opportunities.
[00:02:23] Corey Frank: Opportunities that I once thought were dormant, were dead. My marketing expenses has probably already been flushed. And what's some techniques I can, I can resurrect these things, maybe recoup some of the [00:02:40] costs of acquisition that I had that are creative, that certainly can be leveraged with a good message and, and a powerful weapon like ConnectAndSell.
[00:02:48] Chris Beall: Well, I'll, I'll speak to this. I'll tell a story about yesterday being on the airplane. So I was coming back from Nashville. To Phoenix in order to attend the event that we were all at [00:03:00] yesterday evening, Josh Wagner of InRevenue Capital invited us to a tremendous event and there were LimitedPartners, and PortfolioCompany, now called PortCos.
[00:03:13] Chris Beall: Eventually they're going to be called PCOS, but I don't know if that's really going to work so well. And we just have to keep shortening things. Finally, just [00:03:20] call them COS. But anyway, we were all going to get together there. I came back a little early, sat next to a nice, quiet woman on the airplane.
[00:03:29] Chris Beall: She was writing a screenplay. And just because the pilot inadvertently said we were going to Las Vegas instead of Phoenix, which created a [00:03:40] moment of surprise, then a whole bunch of humor, as everybody told jokes about or made fun of going to Las Vegas instead of Phoenix. That broke the ice.
[00:03:47] Chris Beall: She and I started talking, and at the end of that conversation, one thing led to another, and she said, Oh, now I have to be careful not to introduce you to my boss, the owner of the company, because they'll be so [00:04:00] successful with ConnectAndSell that they'll sell the company within two years and I'll lose my job.
[00:04:04] Chris Beall: That's an example of a ricochet that bounced all over the place, starting with the pilot saying, Phoenix. That would be a ricochet right there because you still got to get to Phoenix, but it caused a conversation to take place with somebody [00:04:20] that otherwise would not have taken place. And I think there's a lot of examples that are available.
[00:04:25] Chris Beall: I had one this morning. I was cold called by somebody. I couldn't quite recognize his name. I picked it up because it was a 206 number. And I'm waiting for a call from the Social Security Administration to tell me when I can [00:04:40] actually speak with them about something. This has been a four month process waiting to Get an appointment for a 10 minute conversation, and I knew it would be a Seattle number.
[00:04:52] Chris Beall: Well, it turns out it's somebody from another company, I think Paylocity, and I encouraged him to speak with our CFO. But [00:05:00] I pointed out to them that he could do his job much more easily, possibly, by using ConnectAndSell, pushing a button and talking to people. Again, that's why we call that a boomerang, which is a kind of ricochet.
[00:05:10] Chris Beall: But there's so many indirect ways, and I think in sales, we often think, Everything has to be direct, direct, direct, right to [00:05:20] I, like, why would I make a list of companies that hire people who do the job that I help with unless I'm going to talk to those people? Well, because you might want to talk to their boss.
[00:05:30] Chris Beall: But to get to their boss, you might have to talk to other people. So that's another sort of a more of an IED approach to ricochets, [00:05:40] put the weapon somewhere near, and if it flips the Humvee over, then at least you can have a conversation with the scattered former inhabitants of it. So we'll talk later about how that fits in with humor.
[00:05:52] Chris Beall: But to me, humor is the kind of the ultimate, always available [00:06:00] ricochet mechanism that can be used in sales if you have enough confidence. So that was kind of long, but it's a setup for what I think is kind of an unusual episode with Richard Rabins here, who is. He can introduce himself, but I'll introduce him.
[00:06:14] Chris Beall: He's the CEO founder of a company that's called Alpha Software, and Alpha [00:06:20] Software is going after something you gotta ricochet for. There's a lot of paper forms out there. They turn those paper forms into mobile capable forms that even work offline and are smart enough to keep you from making the stupid mistakes.
[00:06:35] Chris Beall: I have never correctly filled out a form in my life. They're probably going to ask me for the Social [00:06:40] Security Administration and fill one out. I will make a number of errors and I will wish they had Richard's software making that form because then I could do it on mobile and I wouldn't tear my head off and nail it to a coffee table, frankly.
[00:06:54] Chris Beall: So that's my intro to you, Richard. What do you think?
[00:06:56] Richard Rabins: Yeah, no, I think that's great. I'll dive in on, [00:07:00] on the humor, item and, we're talking offline and humor is a very powerful weapon. Obviously the person on the other side has to have a sense of humor. Otherwise the weapon's not going to work.
[00:07:18] Richard Rabins: But you know, [00:07:20] what it does is when you're in sales and it's a cold call there's this natural distance that the other person's on the other side of the table, he's not on the same side of the table, and what HUMOR does is it [00:07:40] warms things up in my case. I'm a big, I love dogs.
[00:07:45] Richard Rabins: So if I can, if I'm on a call with someone zoom and they're working at home and I see their dog, I'm golden because not pun intended, even if it's not a golden retriever,
[00:07:58] Chris Beall: I was going to say that was a good one. [00:08:00]
[00:08:00] Richard Rabins: Because that's a way of humanizing. And putting us kind of on the same level, because otherwise, if you're trying to sell to something intrinsically, your target has more power than you.
(COMMERCIAL)
[00:08:16] Richard Rabins: Talking about dogs is certainly one thing, but [00:08:20] using humor is, can be powerful. And I was telling you and Chris last night about one case that happened to me. That, but humor ended up being a game changer . Early on in my career, I was working for a [00:08:40] market research company and they did some very innovative stuff.
[00:08:44] Richard Rabins: So if you could get an appointment with the prospect, you had enough data and evidence. That you will, you were almost guaranteed to close business, but getting the appointment in the first place was not, was non [00:09:00] trivial. And I'd started, this was not younger. And I'd started in some sort of analyst role, but was promoted to a project manager, which sounded pretty cool until I found out you actually had to, [00:09:20] kill what you wanted to eat.
[00:09:21] Richard Rabins: And I knew nothing about sales. So I went to my boss at the time and told him I went. There was a popular course, maybe still around Xerox professional selling skills, which Xerox had used internally and had [00:09:40] productized. And I'd heard about this course. And I went to my boss and I said, please, can you send me to this course because I need to learn how to sell.
[00:09:50] Richard Rabins: And it was a lot of money, and he was reluctant and I just nagged him. So finally, he said, if you promise [00:10:00] to get out of my office, you go to the course. I went to the course and yeah, it was useful. You learned, you should probably listen more than you should talk about a bunch of course setting stuff.
[00:10:13] Richard Rabins: So my first. Sales opportunity after the course [00:10:20] got hold of a prospect and I went through the whole routine of why he should give me the meeting and all the objections handled it, perfectly, except he wouldn't give me the meeting. So at that point, I'm toast. Failure. [00:10:40] Failure. There's nothing to lose.
[00:10:42] Richard Rabins: So I said to the fellow, I forgot his name, Bill, Hey Bill, I got on a level with you. So that was already caught him off guard. I've got a level with you? And he said, well, what? I said, well, and I told him the story that I'd just gone to this, [00:11:00] professional selling course. My boss didn't believe in it.
[00:11:04] Richard Rabins: And, and I said, now I've got a dilemma. My dilemma is I have to get off this call, go into my boss's office and tell him that the course does not work, doesn't work. [00:11:20] And he thought that was funny. And I got the meeting and we closed the business. Because at that point, humor can really humanize it made him empathize with, with me, my situation, and versus if I had just pleaded with him and said please give [00:11:40] me the meeting, whatever, probably wouldn't have got the meeting, but humor was, it allowed me to be at the same level, and, fortunately, he thought it was funny and so that's just one example, but there's Tons and tons of examples of human Well, [00:12:00] let me ask
[00:12:00] Corey Frank: Richard and Chris, I would think that a classically trained MIT schooled engineer from South Africa.
[00:12:10] Corey Frank: That's not a bastion of influences that blossom into humor. So when you have it or your [00:12:20] sales reps have it, and Chris, to the larger question, is it something that's taught or is it something that. That just is, right? A lot of last borns have this irreverency gene, right? This humor gene. But Richard, if we were to come in to take your sales organization [00:12:40] and upskill them on many things, their CRM, their automation, their list strategy, their, their, their sales methodologies.
[00:12:50] Corey Frank: Where would humor fit in? And Chris, how do you teach, train, where does it come from this confidence to use humor? And [00:13:00] let's, let's, let's, let's start right right there.
[00:13:04] Chris Beall: Well, I've never been able to teach it, so I've given up. I am the last born, as you well know. And I also think everything's pretty damn funny, which helps if.
[00:13:13] Chris Beall: You're looking at humor. I mean there's an agility of mind that's required to be [00:13:20] funny at the moment. And then there's the ability to learn a bunch of funny things and trot them out. And the former, I think, is extremely hard to teach. That agility of mind to find something funny in the moment.
[00:13:33] Chris Beall: Because our minds go where our minds go. Mine happens to go mostly to puns. I reason, as I've said [00:13:40] before in this podcast, I actually reason in a solution sense by following the sounds of words rather than their meanings, because it gets me out of whatever box I'm in, because a word that sounds like another word is Very rarely gonna mean the same thing.
[00:13:56] Chris Beall: And so it takes me outta my rut and I'm like everybody else. I'm in a rut and I don't [00:14:00] like being in a rut. So I like the sounds of words. In fact I won't tell you what company it is, but with Helen, folks on the podcast know I'm married to this brilliant MIT trained. Mechanical engineer who happens to have written a wonderfully famous [00:14:20] book.
[00:14:20] Chris Beall: Everybody should read this book, by the way, love your team, because there's nothing funny in it, except one thing in one of the forwards. And if you can find that and send it to me, I will either send you a dollar or I won't. So anyway, we were talking about a company that's names she couldn't remember [00:14:40] just for whatever reason.
[00:14:42] Chris Beall: And I finally said, well, it rhymes with what's on her face. And suddenly she could think of the person that she knows who's running that involved with that company and go, Oh, it rhymes with what's her face. And she's gotten the name right ever since. Part of which is because that's a funny thing to say.
[00:14:59] Chris Beall: It rhymes with [00:15:00] what's her face. And it's very easy to remember things that surprised you, which is the essence of humor is humorous surprise, followed by relief. You're surprised, which is a negative. All surprises are considered a threat. Every surprise, good, bad, or indifferent, they're all a threat. [00:15:20] So as you talk about the croc brain, the crocodile brain, Corey, the crocodile brain always responds to a surprise.
[00:15:27] Chris Beall: as a threat. Now the question is, what comes next? So if what comes next is relief, it's not a threat, that's funny. And how do we advertise that relief to the people [00:15:40] around us so that they can relax because now they're no longer threatened by the surprise? We laugh. So laughter is a way of saying it's okay.
[00:15:50] Chris Beall: And that's why people like to go to catch great comedians because they get to laugh a whole bunch, which is a way of taking a pill that says it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. Oh, it's [00:16:00] okay when they know damn well very few things in their life are okay, and they're going to die relatively soon compared to what they would prefer, but laughter is the best medicine.
[00:16:10] Chris Beall: Well, it's also the best kind of dodge, right? But it's always a surprise. And the problem with surprise, it's hard to teach people to be surprised because they would [00:16:20] prefer not to be a threat. So you have to be, this is why humor raises your status. Because you're willing to be surprised. And it actually fulfills the same role as, I know I'm an interruption, which is another way of dealing with being a threat.
[00:16:36] Chris Beall: And nobody wants to be a threat, so very few people want to be funny. [00:16:40] It's just kind of fun, but if you can learn to overcome that, I don't know how to teach it, then you can be a
[00:16:46] Corey Frank: confidence thing? I mean, Richard and Chris, is it a confidence thing? If I'm a new sales rep and I'm listening to this and I say, I have, the chairman of the board of a very, very [00:17:00] successful software company, who knows the left brain, who knows how things work, classically trained MIT, and the CEO, holder of 24, maybe 25, he's not sure, patents.
[00:17:12] Corey Frank: And these aren't the exact old Abbott and Costello I want to learn from to say you should incorporate humor. But [00:17:20] after I get past that, I want to say, Should I, how do I learn it? How do I adopt it? Is, is is there, is it a confidence thing that I have to be bold enough to try things as you did, Richard, when you, when you talked about the Xerox training example with the prospector, or where should I start?
[00:17:38] Corey Frank: I think I think [00:17:40]
[00:17:40] Richard Rabins: it does require a good chunk of self confidence. I don't know if you can teach self confidence. I think there probably are certain techniques that can help boost your self confidence. And you also, [00:18:00] in a fundamental way, you as a human being have to realize there's some really serious things in life.
[00:18:08] Richard Rabins: And most of the, most everything else is not that serious. It's not a life or death matter. And at the end of the day, we're born, [00:18:20] we live, we die. And at the end of the day, you look back at all these things that you thought was so important and so critical, and you, and you look at them and you, you, you put them in a, I think probably proper perspective.
[00:18:38] Richard Rabins: So I think [00:18:40] if you go into, let's say a sales situation and you, if you are self confident and you do have, I think humor is an intrinsic capability. If you do have that capability, at least the self confidence will prevent you from suppressing it. [00:19:00] I, I gave you guys another example last night, so when I was in that same company, pitching, getting meetings, I got a meeting with J& J, big company, it was the Tylenol group.
[00:19:19] Richard Rabins: And [00:19:20] I was presenting, this was actually, we'd closed a deal and this was the findings and the company I was working for at the time, they would run these simulated test markets. So they would advise. consumer product companies on whether they should [00:19:40] launch a new product, a new cat food, a new shampoo, a new form of, in this case, Tylenol.
[00:19:47] Richard Rabins: And, I was pretty young, 25, and I'm presenting in this amphitheater in J& J's headquarters, probably 60 or 70 people [00:20:00] there. And the first slide comes up and there's a typo. And these guys have just spent 250, 000 on a market research project, and this 25 year old twit comes up with a typo. Again I don't know if you can teach this.[00:20:20]
[00:20:21] Richard Rabins: I had to think quickly, do I pretend that the typo is not there and assume nobody's going to see it? It's like people will see it out of 60 or 70 people, they're going to see it. And so you've got to acknowledge it. You know what I did, [00:20:40] I said, we're going to start this with a test.
[00:20:42] Richard Rabins: How many of you guys have spotted the typo? Now, why is that funny? I don't know why it's funny, but it's funny. And it basically took a negative, which is on a 250, 000 consulting project. There shouldn't have been a [00:21:00] typo, right? But yeah, there was a typo. And rather than let that tear you down. So again, there's a confidence issue.
[00:21:10] Richard Rabins: And it's also somebody, I mean, a lot of people have said, you've got to remember everybody, when they put their clothes on, it's one leg at a [00:21:20] time. There's no getting around it. At the end of the day, we're all human beings. And if you can somehow, it, again, it's, it's no reason to accept a lower status, when it's in a sales situation, you want to keep your status [00:21:40] as much as possible on the same level.
[00:21:44] Corey Frank: Interesting. I, I, I love that. I love that story. I think we were talking about the ability to notice. And, Conan and Brian, Conan O'Brien was had a podcast and he had [00:22:00] Stephen Wright, one of your favorites, Richard, on the podcast and, and what the advice that Conan O'Brien, was, was giving to other young comedians that were listening to this podcast is that you have to train your mind to notice.
[00:22:18] Corey Frank: When you notice the [00:22:20] typo, you notice something that was unusual. And he, he suggests to hone in, to develop your comedic skills, is hone in and be aware of your noticing abilities. It's all about scanning, scanning, scanning. And you, ultimately the best comedians [00:22:40] Chris, I think we've talked about this, the best comedians connect things that should be connected.
[00:22:45] Corey Frank: And Conan O'Brien's father made the observation as Conan was coming up into the business, father was a scientist. And he says, you're making a living in essence off of something. that [00:23:00] should probably be treated. In other words, the synopses aren't supposed to cross like that. They're not supposed to touch, but things are wrong in a beautiful way.
[00:23:12] Corey Frank: And somehow you see a connection. So if you can do that and in a modest way or in a [00:23:20] humorous way, like you did about identifying the tempo, I think things are on the track to identifying humor.
[00:23:27] Richard Rabins: Just talking about comedians. Some people love him, some people hate him. I happen to think Larry David is very funny.
[00:23:36] Richard Rabins: And if you look at his episodes, [00:23:40] they're quite complex, the script. There's three or four things woven in together, and he ties them in together. But one thing about what he does, it's back to the notice. He picks up on just little things that people do that you notice, but you ignore. [00:24:00] And he turns them into a big deal and it's funny, but it's all based on real world observation of humans and because we're very strange creatures, very complex, very strange and intrinsically we are funny.
[00:24:18] Richard Rabins: We don't necessarily mean [00:24:20] to be funny, but any observer I think the bottom line is people take themselves way too seriously. And on the other hand, if in the sales thing, if the salesperson can disarm you through humor humor [00:24:40] is generally enjoyable. And it also, as you've said, it relaxes you and it allows you then maybe to focus on or at least the conversation to focus on, hey, maybe this person has a Called me and has [00:25:00] something to offer that is valuable because there's this natural shield that goes up.
[00:25:07] Richard Rabins: If you're speaking to an unknown person and it's not coming from a recommendation, the shield automatically goes up. Mm-Hmm. . So you have to use whatever weapon you can. And, [00:25:20] whether it's commenting on the guy's golden retriever, which I, I find it works every time. You can take the stiffest, coldest call for someone, very formal, and if you're lucky enough that he's working, well, maybe even in the [00:25:40] office, and he has a dog or a cat, but generally a dog.
[00:25:43] Richard Rabins: You ask him it's like asking mothers about their babies. What mother doesn't want to talk about their baby, 
 
OUTRO:
In this episode, Richard and Chris explored the delicate art of wielding humor in sales. But as Chris hinted, there's a balance to strike - you can't take the funny too far.
Join us next time as Corey, Richard, and Chris dive deeper into this comedic conundrum. They'll discuss the risks of overdoing it with humor and share tips for harnessing wit without alienating prospects.
Until then, keep sharpening your comedic chops and ricocheting your way to sales success!

Welcome to a special episode of the Market Dominance Guys podcast, where we dive deep into the power of nurturing relationships through multiple conversations over time. In a world where many salespeople focus on quick wins and low-hanging fruit, our guests today reveal why playing the long game is the key to achieving true market dominance.
Join Corey and Chris while they explore the insights of sales experts like Marc Hodgson, who shares his strategy for building a massive queue of relevant conversations, and Chris Beall, who explains how data gathered from ongoing prospect interactions becomes an appreciating asset. We'll also hear from Jim Graf on the cascading effect of conversations, Ron Brooks on the importance of mastering the art of sales dialogues, and Chris's conversation with Sushee Perumal on the art of "tapping the bells" to find the perfect fit.
Whether you're a seasoned sales professional or just starting out, this episode will provide you with actionable strategies for mastering the craft of sales conversations and nurturing long-term relationships with your prospects. We hope you gain a lot of ideas from this episode, "The Conversation Queue - Nurturing Sales Relationships for Market Dominance."
Episodes included in this topic-driven collection:
EP199: Conversational Alchemy - Transforming Sales in the Age of Cheap Outreach
EP85: When the Time Is Right, the Magic Happens
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In this solo episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall explores the potential of AI-powered data analysis using ChatGPT. Chris demonstrates how this cutting-edge technology can uncover valuable insights from complex sales data in a matter of minutes, a process that would typically take a human analyst days or even weeks. By utilizing ChatGPT's Data Analyst feature and uploading data from ConnectAndSell, he's able to quickly examine the correlations between sales reps' skills and key business outcomes, Chris showcases how AI can help identify the most critical factors influencing pipeline generation and financial success. This eye-opening episode is a must-listen for CEOs, CROs, and CSOs looking to leverage the power of AI to make data-driven decisions and optimize their sales strategies. Join Chris as he delves into the future of sales analytics, revealing surprising findings that could revolutionize your approach to sales training and coaching. Join us for this episode, "Your New Data Analyst BFF Uncovers Surprising Sales Insights.
Key points and timestamps from the episode:
(00:01:37) Chris Beall introduces the topic of using ChatGPT to analyze sales data and uncover insights.(00:02:39) Chris shares his experience working with ChatGPT to write a book summarizing Market Dominance Guys podcasts in just two days.(00:04:20) Chris discusses using ChatGPT for a pricing exercise at ConnectAndSell, balancing customer ROI and company profit.(00:04:55) Chris explains his plan to use ChatGPT to analyze the correlation between reps' skills and business outcomes.(00:07:37) Chris walks through the process of uploading data to ChatGPT and having the AI analyze the columns and data structure.(00:08:34) ChatGPT identifies key columns relevant to the analysis, including activity metrics, conversion rates, and skill scores.(00:19:49) The correlation matrix reveals that asking for the meeting has the strongest correlation with positive outcomes, while professionalism has a surprisingly low correlation.
Keep listening for the analysis results:
The regression analysis shows that 24.1% of the variability in direct amounts is explained by the combined skill metrics.
The breakthrough score has a significant negative coefficient, suggesting that higher breakthrough scores might be associated with lower direct amounts.
Conclusion:
Chris emphasizes the value of using AI for rapid, unbiased data analysis to gain insights and make data-driven decisions in sales.
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
[00:00:00] Susan Finch: Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys, a program exploring all the high stakes speed bumps and off ramps of driving to the top of your market with our host Chris Beall from ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank from Branch49.[00:00:20] 
[00:00:23] Susan Finch: In this solo episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall explores the potential of AI powered data analysis using ChatGPT. Chris demonstrates how this cutting edge technology can uncover valuable insights from complex sales data in a matter of minutes, a process that [00:00:40] would normally take a human analyst days or even weeks.
[00:00:43] Susan Finch: By utilizing ChatGPT's Data Analyst feature and uploading data from ConnectAndSell, he's able to quickly examine the correlations between sales rep skills and key business outcomes. Chris showcases how AI can help identify the most critical factors influencing [00:01:00] pipeline generation. and Financial Success.
[00:01:02] Susan Finch: This eye opening episode is a must listen for CEOs, CROs, and CSOs looking to leverage the power of AI to make data driven decisions and optimize their sales strategies. Join Chris as he delves into the future of sales analytics by uploading his own data and [00:01:20] feeding in complex prompts. This reveals the surprising findings that could revolutionize your approach to sales training and coaching.
[00:01:27] Susan Finch: Join us for this episode, your new data analyst BFF uncovers surprising sales insights.
[00:01:38] Chris Beall: Hey everybody, Chris Beall [00:01:40] here with another episode of Market Dominant Skies. My co host Corey Frank is actually in Armenia right now. And while technically I'm sure it's possible for us to co-host Market Dominant Skies Armenia and Southern Arizona at the same time. Well, let's let [00:02:00] him be. It's getting pretty late there.
[00:02:01] Chris Beall: It's about 2. 35 in the afternoon here in Arizona. Intuitively, I know that's got to be very, very late in Armenia. So I want to try something today and let's see if it works. It could be a little bit tricky, because it could require following a fair amount of verbal input from [00:02:20] me, I guess output, input to you, for something that's a little bit complicated.
[00:02:24] Chris Beall: But here's what I want to look at. I want to look at an example, maybe inspirational, maybe more step by step, you can use it in some way or another. to an example of how to use ChatGPT in [00:02:40] particularly to analyze some information that you might have and point the way forward, maybe give you some surprises.
[00:02:48] Chris Beall: So I've been doing a fair amount of work with ChatGPT since it came out, at least since I was introduced to it. By a couple of smart young people in the backseat of a car coming back from Whistler, [00:03:00] and they were using it to do something that was kind of surprising to me, but made a lot of sense. Once I understood it better, that was to write a yearly family letter and the results were great, but it was the process that really intrigued me.
[00:03:14] Chris Beall: So I decided to learn a little more about it, ended up working with ChatGPT, so to [00:03:20] speak, to write a book that summarized a bunch of market dominance guys podcasts, and I wanted to see, could you do that in a couple of days? The book wasn't great. It never got any human editing, but it was usable. You could read it and you could get something out of it.
[00:03:38] Chris Beall: And two days is pretty [00:03:40] short for a book. Half a year, a year, a year and a half, two years is pretty common. So I thought that's really interesting. And it was very straightforward. As I proceeded through 2023, more and more taking time with ChatGPT to see what I could understand, [00:04:00] uh, building some scoring capabilities for reps skills on cold calling as part of that process.
[00:04:07] Chris Beall: I thought, well, let's, let's just see how far we can go with this. And at one point I did a pretty. Substantial pricing exercise for the products here at ConnectAndSell, trying to balance the customer's [00:04:20] return on investment with ConnectAndSell's own profit on any given deal, at any given price point, given structure.
[00:04:28] Chris Beall: And what surprised me was that it was a better analyst than any human analyst I'd ever worked with, part of which was, it was just comfortable. There's something about asking a bot to do [00:04:40] something for you that has both an impersonal quality, but kind of gives you a feeling of, I'm in control of this.
[00:04:46] Chris Beall: There aren't going to be a lot of, yeah, but I'm not going to deal with a whole bunch of bias. It's going to make mistakes. I'm going to have to pay attention, but not a bad experience at all. In fact, a very, very good experience. So I thought, [00:05:00] Hey, there's a lot of things we all believe that might be subject to analysis.
[00:05:05] Chris Beall: And one of them is that RepSkill in conversations is correlated with outcomes, business outcomes. So I thought I'd take a skills analysis done by a GPT 4 model using a skills [00:05:20] rubric itself written by a. GPT 4 model that was provided originally with an input of about one hour of a detailed description by an expert of exactly what needs to happen in a cold call, second by second by second, and what skills need to be demonstrated.
[00:05:39] Chris Beall: So the [00:05:40] rubric was good. It's kind of long. It describes for each one of the skills that it invented, by the way. It describes what happened at sort of a zero to one point level, you know, two to three and so forth. And it was a 10 point scale. And so just ran that against a whole bunch of data that we [00:06:00] happen to have about our own reps.
[00:06:02] Chris Beall: And pretty much just took the transcripts of all their conversations they had for a few weeks, put them together in, uh, in a form that the GPT. system or the GPT model could digest, apply these skills rubrics to it [00:06:20] and basically score all the reps one week at a time on these different skills. So that was something that was fairly straightforward to do, but it required a lot of, I'll call it kind of mechanics, you know, grabbing a hold of the recordings and turning them into transcripts and making pipelines of [00:06:40] data that went to processes that did X, Y, and Z.
[00:06:43] Chris Beall: But once I had it, I thought, you know, I wonder, we kind of assume that these skills mean something with regard to outcomes. Why don't I take a look? So here's an analysis that was done by the ChatGPT [00:07:00] data analyst, which is one of the kinds of flavors of ChatGPT that you can get nowadays. And I'll actually read through it and tell you how long it took.
[00:07:11] Chris Beall: So this entire process. It took about 12 minutes end to end once I had all the skills in an [00:07:20] Excel file. And here is my initial prompt. I said, let's analyze a collection of weekly results of the ConnectAndSell sales team's cold calls. I will upload an Excel file and walk you through what the columns mean.
[00:07:33] Chris Beall: And we can then conduct a regression analysis to understand the impact of each rep's skills on [00:07:40] three business outcomes. Meeting set per prospecting hour, meeting set per week, and amount of new sales pipeline influenced directly or indirectly by those reps. Now one thing I like about ChatGPT, I don't know, I feel a little foolish liking this, but, ChatGPT.
[00:07:55] Chris Beall: com Our emotions count is it comes back [00:08:00] usually with some encouragement. So it says, that's, that sounds like a great plan. Please go ahead and upload the Excel file. And we can start by reviewing the columns and the data. Once I understand the data set, we can proceed with the regression analysis to examine the effects of the rep skills on the specified business outcomes.
[00:08:18] Chris Beall: So I upload away. [00:08:20] And the data analyst comes back and says, thank you for uploading the file. By the way, no analyst has ever thanked me for anything before. So this is great. Let's start by loading the data so I can understand its structure and contents. I'll check the first few rows and provide a summary of the columns.
[00:08:35] Chris Beall: The dataset contains a detailed breakdown of weekly results from sales [00:08:40] representatives activities. Here are some of the key columns that might be relevant for our analysis. And then it lists the columns. The rep name. The week start date and week end date, the dials, connects and conversations, the number of meetings, the total session time, total talk time, total wait time, total wrap time.[00:09:00] 
[00:09:00] Chris Beall: Those are relevant in ConnectAndSell LAN. Session time is how long we're using the system to call people. Talk time is obviously talk time. Wait time is the time between when you push a button and get a conversation. And wrap time is the time you spend wrapping up, taking notes, And setting next steps and [00:09:20] formulating your teleprompter for your next conversation.
[00:09:23] Chris Beall: So then it says conversion percentage, conversion rates from dials to meetings and from conversations to meetings. Scores. There was a greeting score, an opener, breakthrough, a meeting score, an objections score, [00:09:40] and a score for assertiveness, professionalism. And there was also an overall score, which was.
[00:09:45] Chris Beall: Actually weighted based on the number of conversations that got the subscores. So then it says there are also more complex fields like direct amount by stage and positive amount by stage, which seem to indicate financial [00:10:00] metrics related to sales pipeline stages. I'll stop reading here and just say that was pretty good.
[00:10:07] Chris Beall: It got everything right, including the financial metrics. And I'll explain these financial metrics here in just a moment. Since we're interested in regression analysis, it goes on to understand the impact of rep [00:10:20] skills on business outcomes. We should identify which specific metrics and scores will be most relevant to use as independent variables, predictors, and dependent variables, outcomes.
[00:10:31] Chris Beall: Please guide me on how you would like to proceed. Specifically, which outcomes and variables we should focus on for the analysis. Now, that was a [00:10:40] fair amount of output for a fairly small amount of input, and it sort of nailed everything. These financial metrics, by the way, are from an attribution report that we have in ConnectAndSell that looks at opportunities by stage, and opportunities [00:11:00] by how they were influenced.
[00:11:01] Chris Beall: So some opportunities came about after a meeting was scheduled. Some after a positive conversation, that was the positive amount by stage, and some after any old conversation, and that's called possible amount by stage. So all of this data is in the spreadsheet. It's a very, very wide [00:11:20] spreadsheet, and it has a lot more columns in it that talk about things like.
[00:11:24] Chris Beall: Which objections were the most common? How were those objections handled? And also, what was the rationale for each score? But I wanted to stick to the numbers here. So now I'm about, what, maybe 2 3 minutes into this entire process. I get this [00:11:40] set of analyses and guesses as to what the columns are. And they look pretty good.
[00:11:45] Chris Beall: So I said, well, let's take a look at the columns with Amount in their name. And it said the columns in the dataset related to Amount are DirectAmount, Direct financial outcome associated with activities. This means meetings, by the way. Positive [00:12:00] amount. These are associated with positive activities. Now, GPT, the ChatGPT got that wrong.
[00:12:08] Chris Beall: It said positive financial outcome. It actually was intended to mean is financial outcome from positive conversations or preceded by positive conversations. But [00:12:20] is good enough for this purpose. I didn't need to correct it. And then there's a possible amount, which is the same thing, but it's possible attribution, possible influence.
[00:12:29] Chris Beall: And then it went on to say these amounts are also broken down by sales pipeline stage. So we could look at every stage and look at, say, the closed one only, or look at [00:12:40] contract through the closed one, or whatever it happens to be. Then it goes on to say these stage specific columns likely provide a more detailed breakdown of financial outcomes according to different stages in the sales process.
[00:12:51] Chris Beall: Given this information. It says, by the way, this is the ChatGPT analyst. Given this information, we could analyze how [00:13:00] these financial metrics are influenced by various factors, such as the number of dials, connects, conversations, and different score metrics of the sales reps. Would you like to explore any specific relationships between these financial outcomes and other metrics in the data set?
[00:13:16] Chris Beall: And I said, we will focus on [00:13:20] direct amount. As the financial outcome of interest. So that means a meeting has to be set. Well, it's really not shocking that we're gonna find a high correlation of direct amount to guess what meetings that are set. It won't be a hundred percent. 'cause not every meeting set is actually a meeting attended, and nor is [00:13:40] an opportunity created for every meeting set, although in our way of doing business at ConnectAndSell.
[00:13:45] Chris Beall: We tend to create an opportunity as soon as a meeting is set, because that way we can track it more clearly. So the data analyst says, great. I love that, by the way. We'll focus on analyzing the [00:14:00] direct amount as the primary financial outcome to see how it's influenced by various factors. We can investigate its relationships with 1.
[00:14:07] Chris Beall: Reps performance scores, 2. Activity metrics, such as dials, connects, conversations, and meetings. Thanks. Given the potential complexity and size of your data set, let's start by [00:14:20] exploring the correlations between direct amount and these various metrics. This will help us determine which factors might have a more significant impact on financial outcomes and are worth including in a more detailed regression analysis.
[00:14:34] Chris Beall: Shall we proceed with this correlation analysis? I love that it asks. If there is [00:14:40] any specific subset of variables or additional factors you're particularly interested in, let me know. And I said, this is the easiest of the prompts. Yes. That means I'd like to proceed. It immediately outputs a correlation matrix between direct amounts and all the predictors.
[00:14:59] Chris Beall: Of [00:15:00] course, every predictor maps to itself perfectly, so that correlation is one. And then there are correlations of Meetings, as an example, with outcomes and that correlation is very strong with the outcome of direct amount. Meetings correlated at a [00:15:20] 77 level. That's a high correlation and with conversations at a 59 level.
[00:15:28] Chris Beall: That's not too surprising. It's really hard to set a meeting in ConnectAndSell. Unless you have a conversation first. So it doesn't say that all you really have to do is just [00:15:40] have tons of conversations, but it does say that conversations are highly correlated with meetings and meetings are highly correlated with direct amounts.
[00:15:48] Chris Beall: Therefore, conversations are correlated with. DirectAmount. That's just kind of the way it goes. That correlation of conversations to direct amounts is 56. It's almost the same as [00:16:00] the correlation to meetings. So, it gave me this beautiful matrix. So, down one side it says DirectAmount. That's the answer, so to speak, what we're correlating to, that's the financial outcome.
[00:16:11] Chris Beall: And then Dials, Connects, Conversations, Meetings, and then the Scores. The Greeting Score, Opener, Breakthrough. That means how well did they [00:16:20] execute the breakthrough portion of the conversation. The part that goes something like, I believe we've discovered a breakthrough. That completely eliminates the need to To do a bunch of manual analysis in order to have a detailed and comprehensive set of insights based on complex data.
[00:16:38] Chris Beall: I just made that up right now, [00:16:40] but that's an example. And then meeting, which is asking for the meeting and re asking for the meeting and re asking for the meeting. Objections, objection handling, assertiveness, and professionalism, and then the overall score. So this map is red. I'm not showing it to you because we don't do that here on Market Dominance, guys, [00:17:00] but could.
[00:17:01] Chris Beall: Red is the 1. 0s. That's a 100 percent correlation. Most everything's correlated to itself. And then there's sort of an orange, that's some lower level of correlation, kind of a white, which is medium level, and then it goes into the cold blues. All the way to, to a dark blue. So [00:17:20] it shows me the correlation matrix.
[00:17:22] Chris Beall: I can look at it right, there is huge value in making a correlation matrix like this in Excel or some other way. I don't know if I would've done it. It's just too painful. It's too much work. This is a huge time saver, and I can look with my eyes at it and let my visual system [00:17:40] call things out that are surprising and I say, huh, 
[00:17:44] Susan Finch: we'll be back in a moment after a quick break.
[00:17:52] Susan Finch: ConnectAndSell. Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. ConnectAndSell's patented technology loads your best sales folks up with 8 to [00:18:00] 10 times more live, qualified conversations every day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified. Like knowing what kind of cheese they like on their Impossible Whopper kind of qualified.
[00:18:12] Susan Finch: Learn more at ConnectAndSell. com[00:18:20] 
[00:18:20] Chris Beall: Here's something that's surprising. There is a very low correlation 0.05, which is almost the same as zero between how professional the reps are, professionalism and meetings, and there's also a very low correlation. Which is 03, [00:18:40] even lower, between professionalism and the direct amount of pipeline that's built through meetings.
[00:18:48] Chris Beall: So I wouldn't have expected that. I don't think you would either. One would think that. A rep that is more professional, that comports themselves in a way that we would say is professional, they don't get rattled, they don't [00:19:00] have emotional responses that don't make sense, that that would be correlated with positive outcomes, and it's not.
[00:19:07] Chris Beall: It's funny, though, because it's a negatively correlated with the number of connects and negatively correlated with dials, which kind of makes you think that if you have too many conversations, you might lose a little bit of your [00:19:20] professionalism, something to keep track of out there. Assertiveness was a little bit better.
[00:19:26] Chris Beall: It was a 0. 28 correlation out of 1, so 28 out of 100 with the direct amount. So it's not nothing, but it's not strong. Objection handling is [00:19:40] 0. 32, a little bit better than assertiveness. But nothing to write home about. And then BreakthroughScript itself. We prize our BreakthroughScript. We think it's really fabulous.
[00:19:52] Chris Beall: That adhering to it makes a difference. Well, the correlation with direct amount is 0. 17, 17 out of 100. The [00:20:00] opener also we think is super important, and yet it's correlated only 0. 12, 12 out of 100. Hmm, that's pretty low, right? Same thing with the greeting, 0. 15. So the greeting The opener and the breakthrough, which is the first kind of chunk, most of the [00:20:20] bulk of the breakthrough script and all of these reps are using our breakthrough script.
[00:20:23] Chris Beall: And these are all cold calls. They don't amount to much with regard to booking meetings and therefore getting opportunities on the books that required booking meetings. The strongest correlation of all was the [00:20:40] correlation with, guess what, asking for the meeting. And then kind of insisting that the meeting is a good idea.
[00:20:47] Chris Beall: That correlation is 40 out of 100. So it is approximately 2 point something times how well you do in the opener, or the greeting, or the breakthrough, and [00:21:00] it's about maybe, you know, something like 33 percent more important than objection handling. And assertiveness is vastly more important, uh, you know, more than 10 times, probably 12, 13 times more important than professionalism.
[00:21:18] Chris Beall: Not that we want people to [00:21:20] be unprofessional. I'm just saying it doesn't lead to measurable results. You probably shouldn't be coaching it too hard unless you're just doing it for your own feelings. So, then, I just explained all that to you, your listener, but ChatGPT Data Analyst explained it all to me. And it [00:21:40] basically said, key observations from the heat map.
[00:21:43] Chris Beall: Meetings have the strongest positive correlation with direct amount, suggesting that as the number of meetings increases, the direct financial outcomes tend to be higher. One could say, well, duh, but it feels kind of bad to say, well, duh, to a well meaning bot, right? So I'm going to say, oh, that's, that's good that you [00:22:00] saw that.
[00:22:01] Chris Beall: It actually. it is kind of comforting that this obvious connection was made. Conversations and Connects also show positive correlations, though not as strong as Meetings, indicating their importance in influencing financial outcomes. Now this is important in a very simple way. You actually have [00:22:20] control if you're running an organization to some degree over how many conversations the team has.
[00:22:25] Chris Beall: Your data could be better than it is right now, and it would take fewer dials to get conversations. You could use technology like ConnectAndSell that gets you more conversations. And you could also look at the reps' activities and ask, [00:22:40] is too much time being spent wrapping up or pausing or hanging out, petting the cat and drinking coffee?
[00:22:47] Chris Beall: Could that time have been spent? Without abusing the rep in actual conversations. Sometimes reps have fewer conversations than they otherwise could. Jeff Blunt says one more dial. [00:23:00] We always say one more conversation here at ConnectAndSell. Then it says most of the score metrics show positive correlations.
[00:23:08] Chris Beall: Those are the skills with direct amounts, but these are relatively modest. This suggests that while higher skills ratings do relate to better financial outcomes, the strength of these relationships [00:23:20] varies. So then it says, given these insights, a regression analysis focused on meetings, conversations, and perhaps some of the higher correlated scores could provide further understanding of their impact on direct amounts.
[00:23:32] Chris Beall: Would you like me to proceed with a regression analysis based on these findings? Or is there any specific aspect you'd like to explore [00:23:40] further? Now, this is super important. At this point, I could go with the flow and say, yeah, that's about it. But on reflection, what I'm really interested in is. What about the skills?
[00:23:52] Chris Beall: We work a lot in sales on skills. We coach skills. We don't work as much on data, [00:24:00] even though it could increase the number of conversations easily by getting better data. I mean, say all of your data was for calling was data that told you that these are people who answer the phone. Or their actual propensity to answer the phone.
[00:24:15] Chris Beall: Now we actually have that data in ConnectAndSell and it's automatically integrated into every [00:24:20] calling session, but it's still one of those things that management pays less attention to than they do to skills, at least with regard to lip service. I'm not sure how much attention is actually paid to skills.
[00:24:34] Chris Beall: Because I'm not sure that the breakdown of skills is actually done that cleanly. But here's what I [00:24:40] said to my friend, a ChatGPT data analyst. The correlation with meetings is actually mechanical, in that direct amount is defined as, quote, pipeline that resulted from meetings set in cold calls using ConnectAndSell.
[00:24:55] Chris Beall: This is also true to a lesser degree with regard to conversations and connects. [00:25:00] Even though the score metrics, that's the skills, have a weaker correlation with direct amount, they're actually more interesting to me because the impact of skill scores on business outcomes is an unexplored research topic.
[00:25:13] Chris Beall: So let's try the regression analysis with the score metrics and see what we get. Now, one of the [00:25:20] things when you're working with generative AI, and I work a lot with ChatGPT and then some other GPT 4 turbo models that we've created. is, hmm, it'll do anything you ask it to do. It'll give it a shot. This is highly different from most human employees, especially [00:25:40] analysts that you work with.
[00:25:41] Chris Beall: If you say something to an analyst and they don't really agree that that's worth studying, you're not going to get their best. I love the fact that there's no complaint about rework. or delving in again, or correcting it and giving it another shot by this particular [00:26:00] bot data analyst. I think it's huge because it lets me be more creative.
[00:26:04] Chris Beall: I can simply ask it to do what I want it to do, look at the results. I didn't put a lot of mental energy into the mechanics of producing the results because That's what it did. And I can be more reflective. I can think [00:26:20] more about what I'm seeing and what I'm learning. So, the data analyst here, when I said, hey, let's do the scores, it says, that makes sense.
[00:26:28] Chris Beall: Ah, comfort to me. Focusing on the score metrics, the skills, to explore their impact on direct amounts will help us understand how rep skill levels influence business outcomes. Since [00:26:40] this aspect hasn't been deeply explored, it could provide valuable insights. We'll perform a multiple regression analysis using these score metrics as independent variables and direct amount as the dependent variable.
[00:26:53] Chris Beall: I'll prepare the regression model and show you the results. Let's proceed. And then it goes ahead and does the analysis. [00:27:00] Now, if you're like me, you probably could do a multivariable, multivariate regression analysis. With some effort. Using Excel. I don't know how you might do it, but you could probably get it done.
[00:27:17] Chris Beall: This wasn't much effort. I just said, please do it. [00:27:20] And here's what I get. The results from the regression analysis using the RepSkill scores as predictors for direct amount are as follows. Regression summary. R squared. 0. 241. That means that about 24. 1 percent of the variability in direct amount is explained by the combined score metrics.
[00:27:39] Chris Beall: [00:27:40] Which indicates a moderate level of explanatory power. So this is really important, because even though skills, it turns out, are not highly correlated with outcomes, there are some things we can go after and try to make better. And 24 percent of your pipeline is a lot. So if 24 percent of the [00:28:00] variability in your pipeline, at least in this case produced from meetings, is explained by these score metrics.
[00:28:05] Chris Beall: Well, okay, it might not have been super strong, but it could be worth pursuing. And then there's an adjusted R squared, adjusted for the number of predictors. And it indicates after accounting for the [00:28:20] number of variables, the model explains about 18 percent of the variance. So less than 24%, still not zero.
[00:28:28] Chris Beall: And think of it this way. If there is potential variance in the pipeline from 1, 000, 000 to 1. 18 million, or [00:28:40] some number like that, the skills could actually influence your ability to get that extra 180, 000 of pipeline. So these are not locks, by the way, because we really don't have cause and effect here yet.
[00:28:51] Chris Beall: We have correlation, but worth knowing. And then it gives me the individual coefficients, [00:29:00] and the individual coefficients They tell you how statistically predictable these predictors are, that is, how wrong they are. So it says the greeting, opener, objections, assertiveness, and overall score are not statistically significant predictors of direct amount, as their p values are [00:29:20] greater than 0.
[00:29:21] Chris Beall: 05. That is, the p value means probability of the variance just due to Randomness. So, would you get the same thing over and over and over, or would it spread all over the place, so the p value is basically, say, percentage due to chance, eh, kind of high. The score [00:29:40] breakthrough, the breakthrough score has, get this, a significant negative coefficient.
[00:29:45] Chris Beall: with a p value of 043, suggesting that higher breakthrough scores might actually be associated with lower direct amounts, which is an interesting and possibly counterintuitive finding. Now this is the analyst, [00:30:00] the GPT analyst, telling me that this is interesting and possibly counterintuitive. So if you kind of think about that.
[00:30:07] Chris Beall: That's pretty amazing that a bot that just knows how to spit out next tokens and next, effectively, words, would conclude that this is an [00:30:20] interesting and possibly counterintuitive finding. So I find it counterintuitive also, especially since I'm Kind of one of the people who came up with the breakthrough script.
[00:30:30] Chris Beall: And I would think following the breakthrough well would be a good thing, but maybe not, or maybe it's only in the case where you're trying [00:30:40] to follow the breakthrough and you fail that that's a good thing. So again, we don't know, but it pointed that out. The analysts pointed that out. The meeting score.
[00:30:49] Chris Beall: This score has a significant positive coefficient with a p value less than 001, it's a really small chance that it's due to chance, indicating a strong [00:31:00] positive impact on direct amount. This suggests that skills in securing meetings are crucial for achieving higher financial outcomes. Well, in one way, that's well dubbed because if you don't ask for the meeting, you don't get the meeting.
[00:31:12] Chris Beall: But in another way, it tells you, hey, if you're going to coach something, go coach that, asking for the meeting. That would, in sales [00:31:20] in general, be considered to be coaching for closing. There's whole books on this subject, but I think it's particularly interesting that the mathematical analysis says it's kind of where it's at.
[00:31:30] Chris Beall: And then the last one is professionalism, which also shows a negative coefficient. and p value close to the threshold for statistical significance, [00:31:40] suggesting a possible negative impact on direct amount. So, then it gives me an interpretation. We're almost done. I hope that this was tolerable for you to listen to all this, but I thought it might be interesting because I'm going to go back and just go through the prompts and tell you how long this took.
[00:31:57] Chris Beall: I don't think I could have done this kind of work if I'd been [00:32:00] left alone for a day, and I wouldn't have trusted the results. I would have had to go back and check them. More than once. And then also, if I presented them to somebody else, they surely wouldn't have trusted the results because they go, hey, Chris, these are your results.
[00:32:15] Chris Beall: So, here's the interpretation. The most influential skills based on this model are [00:32:20] related to handling meetings, that is, asking for the meeting, and breakthrough moments in calls. With meeting skills being particularly critical for financial success. So, interestingly, one was positive and the other was negative.
[00:32:34] Chris Beall: This analysis suggests a selective impact of different skill areas on [00:32:40] financial outcomes, highlighting the importance of specific training and development focuses for sales reps. So now it asks me, would you like to delve deeper into any specific aspect of these results, explore other models, or adjust the analysis in any other way?
[00:32:55] Chris Beall: And I'm going to do a live demo right here, and I'm just going to add a prompt. [00:33:00] Let's consider The impact on another financial metric, which is possible. Now, I'm testing it here to see if it can figure out that possible means possible amount. It does a great job. It says we will now analyze the impact of the REPS skill scores on another [00:33:20] financial metric, possible amount.
[00:33:21] Chris Beall: Possible amount means some conversation took place, and later,
[00:33:30] Chris Beall: So, what happens here? Interestingly enough, even if the conversation did not [00:33:40] lead to a meeting, you have the same correlations of the skills, the greeting, the opener, the objections, the assertiveness and professionalism to the outcomes, which is pretty much nothing compared to what Except for one thing, [00:34:00] professionalism has a strong negative impact on possible amount.
[00:34:03] Chris Beall: Now think about that. Isn't that just fascinating? That you can be more professional and maybe you sound a little stiffer. Maybe you're harder to trust. Anyway, it's a strong negative impact on the possible amount and on the [00:34:20] amount directly from meetings. So I think that's quite fascinating, and the breakthrough score is still negative, but it's not as strong as professionalism, and the meeting score, asking for the meeting, has a positive coefficient on the overall amount, that is, whether it's from a meeting or not.
[00:34:39] Chris Beall: Now, [00:34:40] we have to have a little bit of warning here. When you're looking at results from any analysis, whether this kind done by a GPT model or done by hand, By an analyst, you have to be careful of certain things. So this particular analysis has a flaw in it. And the flaw is a kind of selection bias, and that is [00:35:00] the overall metric, which is, Hey, did you get anything in the pipeline at all?
[00:35:06] Chris Beall: Includes the metric from the meetings. That is, from the direct attribution from a meeting leading to the pipeline. So what I should really do is subtract out the, [00:35:20] uh, the pipeline that was generated from meetings and make sure that it's not being included. And I could go ahead and do that even without reloading the spreadsheet.
[00:35:29] Chris Beall: I could ask the analyst to make up a new metric that subtracts the possible.[00:35:40] 
[00:35:46] Chris Beall: So again, I'm going to recap the purpose in this whole exercise. The reason I'm doing this is just to show you that there are deep insights, or at least interesting insights that can be gotten much more rapidly than you might think. And I [00:36:00] think in a more compelling way, it's easier to think about because you didn't wear yourself out on the mechanics of the analysis, and you didn't end up with the biases of your data analyst and just using a GPT model, like ChatGPT, and I recommend that the GPT 4 Turbo Model Data Analyst, just because I'm using it here.
[00:36:19] Chris Beall: I'm sure [00:36:20] there are others that are Equally good, and perhaps better, but using that in a simple way by loading up some data and then telling it what you're trying to do. As I said, let's analyze a collection of these results and look for a regression analysis to understand the impact of skills. On business outcomes [00:36:40] and just be guided by the response of the GPT model.
[00:36:44] Chris Beall: It comes back and says something, you ask another prompt and away you go. This entire process for me, the first time, I think, took 12 minutes. It would have taken me about a week. I get one pretty picture out of it, which is a correlation matrix, which I [00:37:00] can share with people. I get an analysis that I can share with a little copy and paste.
[00:37:06] Chris Beall: I got some, I can't do this because the file has gotten stale. So I reloaded the file and did it again. The whole analysis again, I didn't even have to tell it what to do other than let's switch over to the possible amount from [00:37:20] direct amount. So, I hope this is somewhat enlightening. The main thing I want to do is, I want to encourage folks to use these large language models as their partner in reasoning through business situations and understanding them without relying [00:37:40] On a human analyst, you might take you a day, two days, five days, or forever to come back with results and may be injecting their own bias, either through selection bias or survivorship bias or something else.
[00:37:54] Chris Beall: And you can avoid a lot of arguments this way, get yourself some insights, and [00:38:00] then they're packaged up nicely so you can discuss them with others. So a very different episode of Market Dominance, guys, but hey. We believe in data here and unanalyzed data. Well, it's kind of like an unexamined life. Is it worth living?
[00:38:15] Chris Beall: We don't know, but unexamined data or unanalyzed [00:38:20] data generally is not worth very much. So for Corey Frank, Enjoying Armenia and Chris Beall, this is Market Dominance, guys.
[00:38:37] Susan Finch: Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, [00:38:40] investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world.
[00:38:56] Susan Finch: From crafting just the right cold call screenplays, to curating and mapping [00:39:00] the ideal call list for your entire TAM, Branch49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branch49. com. Never miss an episode.
[00:39:19] Susan Finch: Go to any of your [00:39:20] favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to market dominance guys. com and subscribe.

Welcome to this special Market Dominance Guys compilation episode featuring highlights from some of our most downloaded episodes in the first quarter of 2024.
In these segments, Chris Beall and Corey Frank are joined by expert guests Shane Mahi and Helen Fanucci to explore critical topics for sales and marketing leaders navigating the evolving landscape of go-to-market strategies, data-driven targeting, and the impact of AI on authentic human connection.
You'll hear eye-opening insights on the future of software development in the age of generative AI, why conversations are the often-overlooked key to unlocking your total addressable market, and how to coach reps effectively by providing immediate feedback.
Helen shares her framework for leveraging proprietary data to identify your best opportunities and align resources accordingly. The discussions also examine the challenges of territory assignment and the power dynamics of sales leadership.
Shane and our hosts dive into balancing the power of AI tools like ChatGPT with the irreplaceable value of genuine, trust-building conversations. And you won't want to miss Shane's story of how combining the entrepreneurial operating system with AI helped him rebuild his business in record time after previous setbacks.
These clips from Chris, Corey, Shane, and Helen will help you learn how to position your organization for market dominance through the right mix of data-driven strategy, technological leverage, and authentic human engagement. 
 
Links from this episode:
Shane Mahi on LinkedIn
MEGA.ai
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Full episodes for this segment:
#10: EP215: Sales Artisans: Thriving Alongside Smart Bots
#9: EP216: Conversations, The Kryptonite of MarTech?
#8: EP213: Ethical AI Selling - Reality vs Hype
#7: EP208: Balancing Relationships and Efficiency in AI Sales
#6: EP209: Your Only Product Is the Meeting
#5: EP214: The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity
#4: EP212: Reps Dread It, Managers Avoid It: Coaching
#3: EP211: Conversations Convert to Pipeline Power
#2: EP210: Sales Targeting Beyond LinkedIn and Navigator
#1: EP145: Building Trust Must Always Be Step One
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
#10: EP215: Sales Artisans: Thriving Alongside Smart Bots
The economy always gets reshaped around new capabilities in ways that surprise everybody who is thinking about it. So it's never like that. This is going up and this is going down and it crosses or whatever. It goes along as it goes along with increasing efficiencies in certain areas until somebody innovates a flip and the flip turns it on its head and now it's new, whatever the new thing is, and now you have the old way competing with the new way and the new way since it's enabled by new material science. By that I mean a new capability that does tricks you couldn't do before. It always wins, but it always starts where it has the obvious advantage. The skyscrapers are not out in the desert, they're in Manhattan. It depends where you look, but once you get 'em going in Manhattan, I pretty much guarantee you the little three story building that you used to have that you had some offices in or whatever. First the offices go, then the condos and it's all skyscrapers. Take a look at New York. It's all up, right? Take a look at Des Moines. It's a little up. Take a look at Scottsdale or Tenny. It's just how it goes.
Shane Mahi (01:09:35):
You can even see in Dubai, Dubai was what? Flatland desert. DJ Khalifa Burj Khallifa  is the biggest one up. And now, I don't know if you guys are familiar with the line in Saudi Arabia, same kind of concept, complete desert. Now there's what, a quarter mile long, two pieces of glass inside a metropolis that is going to be heavily tech-orientated, flying cars, all kinds of weirdness. So if Saudi's doing stuff like that, at what point do the outbound agencies or even tech companies realize we've got to kind of adopt the same kind of thing?
Chris Beall (01:10:08):
For sure.
Shane Mahi (01:10:08):
Who is that going to be? Chris, Chris and Corey. Who do you guys have your eyes out on in those markets who are going to be those game changers, those market shapers for AI and tech in our space?
Chris Beall (01:10:22):
Who I don't know. I don't know and I don't care. I don't know and I don't care. I know who the big early winner is going to be with ai. This is actually fairly simple. Microsoft pulled off a trick that nobody even thought of and that trick was to invest 10 billion to get an unlimited royalty free forever license to not only the tech, but all the learning that goes into it, all the training. That was a very good trick because they've always been in the business of helping folks build new things. And the most obvious thing about all this gen AI stuff isn't what it does to sales, which is trivial. It's what it does to what used to be called software development. Software development essentially is in the same state right now as a sugar cube is in a hot cup of tea. You can be pretty sure that game is over right now.
#9: EP216: Conversations, The Kryptonite of MarTech?
Yeah. Is there a natural aversion to that or is it just Occam's razor where it's too simple? Or they're going about a complex formula, methodology, and technology pathway. When you forget to dance with who you are, what are my prospects? What are my people in my TAM saying, what are the people in my ICP? What do they want? What pain do I solve? And gosh, if I could just have a conversation, not send them a survey, not send them an email, but actually have a conversation that can open up these veins of trust that that's the key versus carpet bombing them with content, with white papers, with Gartner magic quadrants, and there's no dialogue there. That's monologue,
Chris Beall (15:20):
Right? This is kind of the awkwardness that I noticed in the entire thing. I'd asked this question, what if you could just talk to people? It's like, oh, well, you can't just tell Chris spiel that you can't talk to people. That one doesn't work. You can't go down that road. I'm sorry. No, you can't talk to people. Then it's like, well, but you'd still need, and then they'd tell me that you'd still need, and I tend to agree. I mean, my thing I was telling folks is, look, I think all the digital stuff is fantastic, but why not cheat by starting with the conversation? You can't get enough conversations for it to be worth cheating. And I said, well, isn't go to a SDR or BDR world if you had 40 conversations a day with targets, that's the equivalent of 40 targeted Google ads that caused somebody to go to your website. So that's pretty good right there. What would 40 targeted Google ads to a vice president or whatever you're trying to reach that actually caused them to go to your website, what would that cost? And they generally go like 30, 40 bucks each. Well, that's $1,600 a day without any meetings of value that you're getting from the advertising of just having conversations. Surely you're not paying your BDRs $1,600 a day. There's margin in there.
(16:39):
And the idea that, oh, talking to people could be a form of marketing that is, I think where the edge is. It's almost like, but talking to that's
Corey Frank (16:48):
Interesting
Chris Beall (16:49):
Light or something. If marketing can't include talking to people nowadays,
Corey Frank (16:55):
It's like bottled water. Hey, we're out of water, we're out of bottled water. We're going to die of thirst. Well, what about this little thing called the tap? I tell my kids all the time. It's like, Hey, dad, the ro, and we're awa. It's Arizona. You got springs all over the place. So sometimes I suppose we're trying to overly complicate something where there's conversations all around, but what do you say to that rebuttal if you can't have enough conversations to make the math work? I think you and I would disagree on that, right? But is that where fundamentally the mindset is? Is that Chris? That's cute. You can talk with a couple people, but I'm talking about sending out mass emails and segmentation, and I do more before 7:00 AM than you do all day with a conversation.
Chris Beall (17:37):
Well, I would say that that level of confidence is not what I was seeing at the conference. It was more like this, which is really, that seems unlikely. And I sometimes have my phone with our current statistics just for the day. I could go look at it right now and probably find how many conversations did we connect yesterday? So we have this thing that's called daily dials, and  if I were to look at daily dials, here we go, daily dials, I can probably find some numbers. And this is one of the things that I tend to do is just look at the numbers every morning when I get up. Actually, I'm kind of lazy, so I lie in bed and I reach over for my phone, and here I am looking at the Daily Dials report, and it said that ConnectAndSell customers had 19,352 conversations yesterday.
(18:35):
Not over some vague period of time, but literally yesterday. And out of those, say that they only set 1,679 meetings, and one of our customers sets lots of meetings. They set 983 with just one of their groups. Really, really kind of a good brand. So if I bring this up and I go, well see here, there's this group of folks and it's 242 companies, and they had 19,352 targeted conversations. It's like, yeah, that's them, but not everybody can afford that. And I'm thinking, well, wait. So I talked to somebody who does advertising, saying we wanted to send an ad or have an ad associated with all the online activity, the phone, particularly activity of everybody we talked to. So that'd be 19,432 people a day of everybody our customers talk to. Is that doable? Oh, yeah. And how would that work? Well, it costs you $20,000 a year minimum.
(19:32):
You have to sign up, you have to commit. It's like, well, why? Well, I mean, for $20,000, you'd have a lot of conversations. Yeah. Well, it's just like, it's almost like I'm trying to come up with a good analogy. I love your bottled water analogy.
#8: EP213: Ethical AI Selling - Reality vs Hype
Certainly with your round table that you've talked with a lot of CEOs like Chris, but that authenticity, whereas as humans, we perceive those little subtleties and mood and those complex needs through a simple conversation. And when a tell happens from an ai, either Chris, to your point from a text or a bot, how do you combat that? Is that the racist to get as authentic as possible or because that's where I think the Delta ethics happened. Chris is, wait a minute, I thought you were a real person, but now you're a machine. So Shane, what do you think about that and bridging that gap?
Shane Mahi (00:23:29):
So Chris mentioned it yesterday and it drove a lot of the discussion, which was it's the ability to tell the truth and just being truthful about anything upfront. And I used it when I started, and it comes from the 27 seconds, is the point of inoculation. And it's stating a fact before somebody has that objection. And if you are using any type of artificial intelligence, computer robot, I think the most authentic, genuine thing to do is to tell the truth. And that comes from, Hey, this is a robot, Corey, I'd like to have a conversation with you. If not, would you like to be speaking to a human? You'll then say, sure. The robot then has the advantage of saying, Hey, Corey, it's going to take about five to six minutes to patch you through. I can probably get your questions covered in the next 45 seconds.
(00:24:18):
Do you want to have a chat with me or do you want to have a chat with the next person? And for me, that makes all the difference because time for a ceo, for a business professional is absolutely everything. And the ability to cut out that wasted time is everything. I'll give you a quick example. I called, I mentioned it yesterday, right, Chris? I called Pizza Hut the other day and it took me six minutes to remove onions from my pizza because the guy kept battling from me that I said, you can't just pick the goddamn onions off the pizza. I don't like onions. And it was a nightmare. Now, had a bot just been able to say, Hey, which toppings would you like to add or remove if any? Just remove onions. My pizza's at the door in 10, 15 minutes. And for me, again, the truth allows that time to be shortened, which gives you more opportunity to take care of other things that are most important in your life.
(00:25:13):
And another thing that I think is really important, I just watched it the other day, and that point you made on authenticity and being genuine and the truth. Mackinac, I'm sure you both have seen that. I had no idea. I think Sam Altman is an ex Mackinac that's swear God, because when that person, the robot locked the door, obviously it's playing with the guy. I'm a sucker for women, absolute sucker for women. So if I was in one of those situations and they were manipulating me without knowing it and putting the love spot, well, were you really interested in me? He's lying to you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, to get out. That is where everything changes for me. And now after seeing that movie, I'm wondering, Chris is very smart, Cora, you are very smart. Are you going to start peeling off your skin one day and saying the same thing to me?
Corey Frank (00:26:11):
Well, but I think that's part of it. It's a brilliant point. I love the trust thing
#7: EP208: Balancing Relationships and Efficiency in AI Sales
(8) If there's skepticism or resistance from sales teams or clients towards AI tools like ChatGPT, how do you recommend addressing these concerns?
Well, a couple of different ways. There will always be skepticism about new technology. There should be. New technology means new, it's unproven. We're not sure what it does. Really, really cool technology that makes you think something that's not actually true. Like, hey, ChatGPT is a person who's talking to me. That's not actually true. Hey, ChatGPT is thinking about this. That's not actually true. It's the next engine. It knows a lot of stuff that it's read so to speak, and it knows how to spit out the next token, think token word, very similar concepts. And so when ChatGPT is talking to us so to speak, it's really just going next, next, next. Now maybe our minds work like this too, and our voices work like this. 
Chris Beall (18:52):
I have a feeling we do a lot of next, next, next, ourselves. It's just the way the world is. We love to think that we're really brilliant, having deep, deep thoughts and all that. Probably not. We're probably just spitting out the next word that comes to mind. That's why we call it. And so its natural skepticism is natural. The way skepticism is overcome is through two things. One is transparency, it let's be open about things. And the other is track record. So if the track record is good, and we note that over time some particular function, and I'll go back to those conversations where you take a discovery meeting, and the AI compresses it down to 10 points. Well, the first time I read one I might think maybe it's missing some things. By the time I've read a hundred of them, which only takes me a hundred minutes that I might've spread over a couple of weeks, I'm starting to go, Hey, I think this is pretty good. 
Chris Beall (19:47):
I don't have any big misses yet. But it just takes time. It takes time, and it takes experience. This is why the most skeptical people who are really, really smart plunge in and start experiencing what I call in anger or with an intent for a meaningful outcome, a new technology that is clearly as powerful as ChatGPT and all the things that are like it. So if you haven't gotten in there and put your hands on it, so to speak, and made some mistakes, try writing some prompts and seeing what happens. Don't just do the same thing over and over. Your skepticism only will go away appropriately and correctly with experience that leads to a track record because now you kind of know where the landmines are. 
How about question number nine, future trends. 
#6: EP209: Your Only Product Is the Meeting
(Not this one - it's another short compilation episode)
#5: EP214: The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity
We picked the most lovely industry to go into, and that's telemarketing and cold prospecting. And what was it? And the only reason that I was able to get to the truth faster was because read about Daniel Disney when the pandemic hit found, cog found ConnectAndSell, bought Cog, bought ConnectAndSell, spoke with Gerry, did Flight Scool, had seven meetings in six hours, and that's where it started. It was the ability to have your script, be honest, open, and just get into those conversations. And by doing that fast, quickly, efficiently, and at scale, we were able to progress our business much faster, I think, than a lot of people. We actually had 444% growth from year one to year two from using ConnectAndSell and implementing a system called the Entrepreneurial Operating System™ by Gino Wickman.
(00:35:15):
Now the authenticity of our brand, and even what is happening right now, came from all of the mistakes we made. And those are typically our storytelling, selling mechanisms, the mistakes we made and the path we took got us to a place where we made all those mistakes, learned everything, and served customers. I obviously lost my business because of some bad decisions I had to let go of my business, A lot of bad decisions. But I've recreated my business. That took me three years in three months with the use of ChatGPT. And why is it because I prompted all of my problems, all of my stakes helped me build a business plan that bypasses these mistakes and gives me the outcomes I'm looking for in half the time. And in that now, my marketing, my messaging, emails, prospecting, research, everything that, again, like you said, rightfully so, anything in the future is anxiety.
(00:36:12):
Anything in the past is regret. The only thing that matters is right, right now. And what's happening right, right now is yes, you better get on board because AI is happening. As much as you are worried about what can happen 5, 10, 15 years in the future, that shit is going to happen whether you like it or not. So it's either get ahead of the curve or get with the curve, or you are going to be that. They're just bums, bums who want to stay behind and complain and say, this is going to ruin me. This is going to take my job. Get with the program, dude, get with the program. Start using it. I was a novice, an absolute novice using ChatGPT when it first came out. The only thing that drew my attention was a hundred million users in one week for that alone. I was like, all right, let me see what this is about. I'm a novice still to this day, but the amount of times I've set up till three in the morning, six, seven hours, prompting, prompting, prompting to the point, the only reason I went to bed is because it said, you've maxed out your attempts. You can't use us anymore.
Corey Frank (00:37:13):
You finished the internet, you exhausted ChatGPT. 
Shane Mahi (00:37:18):
That’s right, and that happened multiple times. And my knowledge comes, which is why I believe podcasts, even to the education of AI and ethics and sales and marketing, everything behind it has come from listening and watching podcasts. That's the only reason I was able to learn.
#4: EP212: Reps Dread It, Managers Avoid It: Coaching
CLIP 1:
So that's really key to getting coaching to work. The coaching has got to be immediate. Most coaching is way, way, way, way too late. Coaching somebody on Friday I about a performance they had on Monday, don't bother. It's just not going to get anything done. This is where I think managers often confuse what I'll call deal work with coaching. They think that they're coaching, they're actually talking through how a deal might go, what some tactics and techniques might be, and they get an agreement from the rep to do something better, different whatever in the next interaction that they have with the prospect. And that feels like coaching, that's more like advising and it's nice and it's important unless it's just war stories. But coaching is really to improve performance and you need to have the performance and the coaching and the performance and the coaching be very close to each other in time. 
Chris Beall (16:28):
Minutes are okay, not very many minutes, hours are too long and a week may as well be forever.
CLIP 2:
got to have a chance of listening for the same thing over and over. So it's really, really important to do it. But most of what's called coaching isn't really coaching, it's kind of advising it's too far after the fact. 
So if you can figure out ways, be listening behind the scenes, coming in and whispering to somebody immediately after a conversation and helping them perform that little bit better on first failure, you'll find over time that and fairly short amount of time that what you're hoping for in the bottom line, which is conversion rates, small number of conversations, leads to a bigger number of meetings, and a larger number of meetings are being set per rep hour, which is the key number. You'll find that stuff improves on its own. So start from the beginning, you'll get to the end. Eventually, you'll get some great results
#3: EP211: Conversations Convert to Pipeline Power
Because let me tell you, if you think you know, you're fooling yourself, you're fooling yourself. If you aren't getting feedback from the market through conversations at a short enough cycle time and a high enough frequency, you're just guessing and your problem is competitively, somebody else might choose not to guess. And I think Helen's going to help her clients choose not to guess. 
Corey Frank (08:33):
And so with that, the helping knuckleheads like me choose not to guess. Where do you start, Helen, right? I'm a small mid-size VP of sales. I have a decent patient board. I have a SaaS software product. I got some funding. I think I'm doing everything right. I have enough people, I get more people as soon as I start proving myself and go to the board. So I think I'm doing okay, but where would I start with something like this? With people's power? 
Helen Fanucci (09:05):
I would start by looking at the data that you currently have in your CRM system or whatever your system of record is to find out one, where you're winning, who you're winning with, what types of people are making the buying decisions as a business. You may or may not already know. That depends on how you have been crawling through your own data. So I'd start there to look at the current state and try to draw some conclusions or at least illuminate where resources are aligned and are they aligned to where you're currently winning or are they misaligned? So I would start looking at the current state to build a hypothesis of what you could do more of to accelerate your revenue, and it might be repositioning some resources to an industry that you're doing well at or trying to then going to find people. Let's say you have some folks that make the decision, so you have some champions or economic buyers, what do they have in common across each other? 
Helen Fanucci (10:24):
And I don't just mean job titles, but the characteristics. You can look on LinkedIn and see what the characteristics of those and then go find some more like that within a defined addressable market or where you think you want to go. I think some of those things are places to start. This begins to get the closed loop feedback here. You have data, you have some results and dispositions from your go-to market, even if it's closed loss or not now, not interested, what have you. So trying to apply current data to then make some recommendations of how to move forward. The other thing too is what information do you have or that you capture that's proprietary to you? Because they can't build a defendable market dominance position on publicly available information. So what is it that you're collecting or that's proprietary and how do you get more of that that's relevant to your business? And I don't know if that's something in my experience anyway, that's not really a deliberate thing that people put. Time sort of happens and some people have more insights into their customer set, but doing that in an organized fashion to build up insights that your competitors don't have, or at least that's proprietary to you, makes a lot of sense and differentiating yourself and defending your position in the market. 
#2: EP210: Sales Targeting Beyond LinkedIn and Navigator
Helen Fanucci (22:01):
One of the things that was interesting is this idea of territory assignments, and we have a rep that has a locked in territory and people, I guess feel a comfort zone with that versus well, okay, here you have maybe 10 accounts, but all the other unnamed accounts are fair game and they go to whoever gets a meeting in those accounts. It's so interesting to see how anxious or irritated people are by having an open territory concept. It's like everyone wants to have their patch defined, locked down so they can pursue it as they wish. So is that going smaller and smaller? It probably is, and it was just fascinating to me to observe the dynamics around that and the discomfort with having all these accounts that were fair game for anyone to go after. I wonder if you have seen that much in what your thoughts are about that, but when you talked about the shrinking world or shrinking view, that's kind of what I was thinking about is, yeah, you can zero in, but then you lose sight of what's possible where you're not looking. 
Corey Frank (23:21):
Yeah, it's funny. I think it's probably the same reason why a lot of sales reps have the security of a bloated pipeline. They can't disqualify folks in this particular quarter. Hope Springs eternal that this person will always close for this angst, this fear that if I keep sending them touch base emails, not picking up a call and having a conversation, not promoting something new, that I'm seeing what's happening in the world from 40,000 feet that's relevant or German to them. But if I simply do touch base emails, which is the equivalent of did you decide on choosing me and giving me your money yet? Or is there a better option that's out there? But that's why pipelines remain large. I can see that there is certainly from the team that all three of us collectively and Broaden knows we're a sales organization. The bigger, the more states I have, and Chris, you and I have talked about this when it comes to people too, if you're a sales manager, the more people I have under my purview, under my fiefdom, certainly the more prominent I am, I guess the more secure I feel. You probably saw this a lot at some of the larger companies you were with Helen, right? Is how many headcounts are under your particular p and l, and that somehow is a status thing. 
Helen Fanucci (24:33):
Well, it's power. You have more resources as a sales leader. You don't have a budgeta compared to headcount. So headcount is more resources. It is a version of power to be able to get bigger revenue, bigger quotas, because headcount always comes with bigger quotas. The more headcount, the more quota. So if you're willing to take that on, great. Why not?
#1: EP145: Building Trust Must Always Be Step One
(not this one - this was a small topic compilation episode that continues to be their top episode for over a year!)

In this solo episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall unveils the ultimate sales KPI: pipeline dollars generated per rep hour. This metric is a game-changer for CROs, CFOs, and CEOs looking to optimize their sales efforts and drive business growth. Chris explores the importance of measuring and maximizing this KPI, sharing insights from ConnectAndSell's own data and revealing the significant potential of a well-executed market dominance program. He breaks down the different types of attribution, ideal conversation and meeting rates, and optimal prospecting hours per week. Whether you're a sales leader aiming to improve your team's performance or a C-suite executive seeking to understand the economics of your sales efforts, this episode will help you discover how pipeline per rep hour can help you take your company's revenue generation to new heights.
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
[00:00:00] Chris Beall: Hey everybody, Chris Beall with Market Dominance Guys with an episode about a bunch of numbers, a bunch of KPIs. And I decided since it's just going to be numbers I'd leave Corey to do something more useful than ask me questions about numbers.
[00:00:16] Chris Beall: So, I came up with the questions myself and [00:00:20] I'll play you with them. It's right now, the 4th of April, 2024, right before Tax Day. And I was speaking last week, had the pleasure of speaking with Mike McCracken, the Founder and CEO of McCracken Alliance Partners, who provide all the information. amazing help with regard [00:00:40] to finance things, not just taxes, which is that'd be fairly straightforward, probably, although they can be complex, but really how to make your company sing, how to make your company dominate even with the help of financial professionals who know what they're talking about and who will work with you to make [00:01:00] some stuff happen that you probably didn't believe could happen.
[00:01:03] Chris Beall: So I asked Mike a question. I said, Hey, Mike it kind of bothers me that ConnectAndSell, which primarily has two impacts on companies that one would think CFOs would be interested in. One is immediate increase in pipeline, and everybody [00:01:20] knows that pipeline is a leading indicator of future revenue, and CFOs sure like to be able to forecast future revenue with 
[00:01:27] Chris Beall: greater accuracy, specificity, and fidelity. And then it also allows you to decrease costs immediately because you can do more with less. And [00:01:40] less tends to be unnecessary headcount, extra headcount. You can also do more with more if you're in the mood to do that. But in any case, there's an efficiency play and capital efficiency is of great interest to CFOs.
[00:01:51] Chris Beall: And Mike, he gave me a great answer. He just like, boom, hit me between the eyes. He said, Chris, you gotta come up with a KPI that [00:02:00] is meaningful to CFOs, that's meaningful to the business. And I said, well, we have one of those, and it's called Pipeline Built Per Rep Hour. And I thought, as I was out doing my little barefoot trot today, getting the usual comments from folks, what is it about going barefoot that makes everybody think that you're weird?
[00:02:19] Chris Beall: I [00:02:20] don't know. In any case, I was out there trotting along in beautiful Arizona sunshine, and thinking, why don't I just say what some really good values would be for some, KPIs, some metrics that folks tend not to think about very much. And so I, I just thought I'd share [00:02:40] some we measure at ConnectAndSell what we call attribution, and we measure three kinds.
[00:02:47] Chris Beall: So one kind is what we call direct attribution. That's looking at all the pipeline that's been built directly from meetings, appointments that were set in, ConnectAndSell. We know that happened because there are [00:03:00] dispositions that indicate that a meeting was set and there. Certainly is pipeline out there to be measured, and you can link it together a number of different ways.
[00:03:09] Chris Beall: The most straightforward is by the account name, by the customer name, and you can say, hey, set a meeting with somebody. Pipeline shows up later. How much pipeline? [00:03:20] What stage is it in? And you get a pretty good read on what you're prospecting is accomplishing in terms of dollars of pipeline. That are being set by your reps, but what's in the denominator and the big question that I think really is out there for all of us who care about prospecting and anybody who doesn't care about [00:03:40] prospecting, certainly they either got some other weird kind of magic going on.
[00:03:45] Chris Beall: Or and bless you if you do, right? You don't need prospecting, you're in a special place. But most businesses need prospecting. And, in fact, Jason Lemkin just wrote an article this week talking [00:04:00] about how the new KPI for venture finance companies, not just net retained revenue, not even just gross retained revenue, all the stuff that's about, oh my God, what if we lose a customer?
[00:04:13] Chris Beall: We got to keep them all very conservative sort of way of looking at the world. It's about your [00:04:20] ability to add new customers. Well, add new customers is what prospecting is all about quite frankly. So now we have tied prospecting to the new, most important KPI that venture capitalists care about, which is adding new customers.
[00:04:37] Chris Beall: It actually made me go take a look and I [00:04:40] was pretty happy with what I saw for our company. It was interesting to see, a little bit more than a hundred percent new customers added over the last year. Some of which have come through partners who are working on an appointment setting basis, and they're doing things for companies that would rather have somebody else do it, most of which are [00:05:00] customers of ours that are having ConnectAndSell help them do prospecting so they can get new customers and get new pipeline in a reasonably efficient way with predictability, visibility, and control.
[00:05:13] Chris Beall: So that's really interesting. Pipeline is the number that we tend to look at. [00:05:20] And new customers are a, another number. I'll call those numerators. But what should we be looking for in the denominator? Well, I'll go to pipeline right now. We measure something called pipeline per rep hour. And we measure it, as I said, one way, which is what we [00:05:40] call direct attribution.
[00:05:42] Chris Beall: That means came from meetings. We measured it another way, which is came after positive conversations. Positive conversations are like, I'm interested, send me information, that sort of thing. And then, there's the pipeline that comes from any old conversation. So any old conversation could be a negative [00:06:00] conversation, could be a blow off.
[00:06:02] Chris Beall: The fact of the world is, when you talk to somebody, they're more inclined to take a look at your website. And they're much more inclined to answer that email that you wisely sent them that says thank you for our conversation today and also much, much, much more inclined to actually speak with you if you call them in the future [00:06:20] because you've already demonstrated that they answer the phone.
[00:06:23] Chris Beall: And it's more likely to be a good conversation because you've had a conversation, however brief, and you can open the next conversation effortlessly with what you wanted to say, but kind of didn't get to say. How to, start that next conversation is something you make [00:06:40] available to your future self and in a set it and forget it kind of way, you become a sales genius.
[00:06:46] Chris Beall: But what's in the denominator? Okay. So there's pipeline measured three ways. In the denominator. must be, it seems to me, the number of hours that reps spend prospecting. Now, I venture to [00:07:00] say most of us have no idea how many hours our reps spend prospecting. And one of the, I think, appeals of the SDR BDR revolution is, hey, I've got reps that are just prospecting, so I can allocate all of their hours, I can tag all of their hours, categories, categorize all of their hours [00:07:20] as prospecting hours.
[00:07:22] Chris Beall: I don't know if this is true or not, but I am sure that when somebody's in a ConnectAndSell session and they've pushed the button, as we say, and they're having conversations, that we have verifiable time spent prospecting. And that's a cost to the business. Those reps cost money. [00:07:40] They're fully burdened rate is whatever it happens to be that can be burdened with just the usual, but you could also throw in all the tools and technologies and data and all that kind of good stuff you have to provide and you can get an idea of what a rep costs you per hour.
[00:07:56] Chris Beall: You can, if you know how much pipeline was built by that [00:08:00] rep, by each rep, in each hour, and you know it in all relevant ways, one way would be directly through meeting set, that's the one that most folks will measure, if they measure anything, by the way. Another one is positive conversations that lead to pipeline.
[00:08:15] Chris Beall: And another one is the really the good one, this you probably [00:08:20] won't believe, but it is the best KPI. Is. Pipeline built per hour from any conversation. You don't know what really has happened. A lot of stuff kind of goes out into, I'll call it sort of the action cloud. That is what's going on out there when someone has been spoken with by [00:08:40] one of your reps.
[00:08:41] Chris Beall: You don't know. They can, that person, that target. They could talk to somebody else. They could go to your website. They could have a thought about what it is you do. They could check out you and your competitors, which is not a bad thing, by the way, if they haven't been thinking about a solution in your space.
[00:08:56] Chris Beall: They certainly can answer an email or at least [00:09:00] read an email that you send them. So there's a lot of things that can happen. You can advertise to them. A lot of things can happen after a conversation. But the pipeline is pretty easy to measure. It comes right out of your CRM. Opportunities are there.
[00:09:11] Chris Beall: They're in stages. Therefore different accounts, and you know that you talked to somebody at that account. Certainty is not the goal here. You can get [00:09:20] a perfectly good KPI without certainty. And, like all good data, you can measure it over time. You can trend it. And then you can go and correlate it to the final results, which is 
[00:09:32] Chris Beall: ultimately bookings and then revenue and if you're a kind of an ARR or MRR kind of company ARR and MRR [00:09:40] because those could be interesting too. So number one new KPI to pay attention to pipeline generated per rep hour, and I'll give you some numbers that will sound different from what you might expect. I'm looking at the last year.
[00:09:57] Chris Beall: So today is I'm [00:10:00] treating it as the end of March, so sort of April of last year, which is 2023 to end of March 2024. And I'm looking at a fair number of companies, about 130 of them, that I have pipeline per rep hour measured for. So, a really good number, [00:10:20] a fantastic number, is also a really big number.
[00:10:24] Chris Beall: Some of these you kind of look at and you go, well maybe they're a little early in the game, but some of them are pretty stunning in any case. So one of our customers, for instance, and I won't say their name because they haven't authorized me to do that. They sell deals in an [00:10:40] average of about $73,894. And the pipeline that they're building per rep hour in the last year is $378,082 of pipeline per rep hour of prospecting.
[00:10:57] Chris Beall: Now, darn well they're not paying any [00:11:00] of their reps. $378,000 an hour. Do we know what their gross margin is? So we'd actually be able to say how much money is coming in, do we think, from these deals. Do we know what the probability of the deals are? Do we know when the deals are going to close?
[00:11:14] Chris Beall: Yes, we actually do know all those things, and those are very interesting to break down. But the [00:11:20] first thing to know is , you got to generate pipeline across all the different stages with a lot of different cycle times when they're actually anticipated to close, a lot of different probabilities in order to have business.
[00:11:34] Chris Beall: That's just the way it is. So this is $378,082 an hour. The [00:11:40] next one down is a very large company that is pretty fascinating, actually, if you kind of looked at what they do. But their deal sizes are really big, like $2.77 million per deal. And they're generating $265,047 of pipeline per rep hour. And now I'm going with the pipeline that [00:12:00] is from all conversations, not merely that came directly through meetings, although we could look at that, but this is, I believe, the true most important KPI to pay attention to.
[00:12:12] Chris Beall: So next is $258,586 of pipeline per rep hour, [00:12:20] $164,766. So let's go down a ways. I'm going to get to a company that is at about number 30 on the list. So actually, I'll go with our company, ConnectAndSell. How much pipeline do we generate per rep hour? So, our average deal [00:12:40] size is not huge. We do initial deals that are in the sort of $20,000 range.
[00:12:45] Chris Beall: There's, some of them can be very large, some can be smaller, but we like to get started with folks in a way that really makes sense for their business. And we do a lot of prospecting. How much prospecting in that last year? A lot of prospecting. [00:13:00] 13, 578 hours of prospecting. That's a fair amount to generate a fair amount of pipeline.
[00:13:10] Chris Beall: So when you look at it, that's 132 million dollars of pipeline. So it's $9,731 per rep. hour [00:13:20] of prospecting that can be measured. This is not taking all of the hours in the day for these reps. This is the hours they're spending. in sessions where they're pushing button, talking to a target, and then wrapping up, we call it, which is taking notes, setting the, that little teleprompter for their future self and [00:13:40] setting a disposition.
[00:13:40] Chris Beall: So, and we're gaining intelligence as a company about all of these conversations and also separating out and segmenting the market into folks who answer the phone, we know answer the phone because we spoke with them and folks who haven't answered the phone yet. Across all of those, of course I don't, know why we wouldn't do [00:14:00] this.
[00:14:00] Chris Beall: We measure their tendency to answer the phone across the entire community. We crowdsource that tendency to answer the phone and keep that current every day. Not for everybody, but for about 24 million folks that are worth talking to. We call it fast phone numbers. So all that intelligence is coming back.
[00:14:17] Chris Beall: But the other thing that's coming back is [00:14:20] opportunities going into the CRM and those opportunities have dollar amounts associated with them. They also have probabilities and stages and all that kind of good stuff. But right now I'm talking about the most important KPI that's probably new to you. And if you're measuring this KPI already, pipeline [00:14:40] dollars per rep hour, I'm super impressed, unless you're already a ConnectAndSell customer, in which case we're measuring it for you.
[00:14:47] Chris Beall: And then you're getting to understand it and break it down. We break it down for you, trend it, see how it's associated with individual reps. Would you like to know that each rep that is doing prospecting [00:15:00] is generating pipeline, and how much? Because being able to do attribution to marketing spend is one thing, but being able to do attribution to what you're spending on the actual folks that are out prospecting, that's whether they're SDRs and BDRs, or whether they're account executives, in our case, it is a mix.
[00:15:18] Chris Beall: Everybody at ConnectAndSell [00:15:20] prospects. Big surprise, right? So when you look at all of your numbers and you think about your business, whether you're a CEO, whether you're a CFO, whether you're a CRO, whether you're a business development manager, a BDM, a SDR manager, a sales manager, a VP of sales, whatever you are, [00:15:40] this KPI is the KPI you should be paying immediate attention to. Now, once pipeline per rep hour, you've kind of simplified this production of pipeline, which is you either add more rep hours or you improve the pipeline [00:16:00] being set per rep hour by improving either the number of conversations and impact of those conversations. So conversations per hour, is important.
[00:16:10] Chris Beall: Now we're going to go to the other end of the spectrum. What are the drivers, right? So the simple drivers are conversations per hour. Have more. What's a [00:16:20] reasonable number of conversations per hour that makes sense to have? There's a number somewhere between six and say 12 really can make a difference.
[00:16:31] Chris Beall: Our average over all of our customers last year is about 9. 4, but it's highly varied because they're using different [00:16:40] protocols. Some are connecting on live voice, some are connecting only when the target answers. But if you've got five conversations an hour going on with your reps, you're probably doing pretty well.
[00:16:50] Chris Beall: Now they're probably setting meetings. That's direct attribution. How many meetings per hour is a good number. About half a meeting per hour is a great target. If you're setting [00:17:00] half a meeting per hour per rep, you're probably doing quite well. How many rep hours per week really depends on what your reps are doing.
[00:17:08] Chris Beall: If they're SDRs, my view is they should be doing as many as they can manage. That number is probably about five or six a day. And I know it [00:17:20] sounds like it's terrible talking to people for five or six hours a day. It's actually pretty fun. As long as you don't have to dial, navigate phone systems and do all that kind of junk.
[00:17:29] Chris Beall: So that's that's a number that is interesting in the SDR world. Not many people achieve that. Our reps at ConnectAndSell, they run at [00:17:40] about 5. 8 hours of prospecting per week if they are SDRs. And they run at about 2. 5 hours of prospecting per week if they are account executives. So you can see it varies.
[00:17:54] Chris Beall: The AEs are busy doing other things, but they find time to prospect. They tend to prospect together, by the [00:18:00] way. Together in time, not in space. They're all over the place because it's more fun. And because management then can talk about what we're trying to do in this particular session and we can gain more insights than just the data might give us.
[00:18:15] Chris Beall: So this is about is it, this is a tough one, but I [00:18:20] would say for an AE two and a half hours a week prospecting, real prospecting measurable, probably get the job done. And for an SDR if you really want to dominate, you're probably talking about five and a half hours a week. Then you've got, okay, all this prospecting, prospecting is going on.
[00:18:38] Chris Beall: Have we got the conversations [00:18:40] per week that are, or per hour that are happening? So we now know maybe 60 conversations a week on average, but again, very different between SDRs and account executives. And the same thing with dials that should be done for them. No rep should ever have to do a dial.
[00:18:58] Chris Beall: It makes no sense [00:19:00] whatsoever. Reps should push buttons and talk to people, or hey, if you can talk to people without pushing buttons, that makes sense too. So what do your conversion numbers need to be in order to make this happen? Well, there are two kinds of conversion numbers, cold and follow up. Cold should be North of 5 percent if you're in a market [00:19:20] dominance program, but the main reason you're talking to folks is to segment the market into people you can talk to.
[00:19:25] Chris Beall: Those who answer the phone and people you need to kind of go after a different way. Those who don't answer the phone. For those who answer the phone on the first conversation, what we call a cold call, you're going to be shooting for around 5 percent across all [00:19:40] of your reps. If you have a rep languishing at 2%, or then you have a skill issue.
[00:19:45] Chris Beall: If you have all of your reps languishing at 2 or 3%, you probably have a targeting issue. The issue is that either your target market is being chosen incorrectly, or more likely, your scripting is allowing that easy [00:20:00] exit where somebody just says, "Thanks, we're all set." Almost every cold call script has got a major flaw in it that is going to drive your conversion for cold calls way, way down.
[00:20:11] Chris Beall: Now, not to worry, even if your conversion for cold calls is way, way down, the money is actually in the follow ups anyway. So as long as you're having enough conversation, say a [00:20:20] rep is having something on the order of 50 or 60 conversations with targets per week. That should be generating something on the order of 40 to 50 follow ups.
[00:20:31] Chris Beall: Follow up opportunities. That's people we know answer the phone that you can talk to next week or more likely next quarter. And you can nurture through the 11 [00:20:40] quarters in the future it's going to take for their company to finally want to do business with anybody. And that could include you because you've got the inside track.
[00:20:48] Chris Beall: So you've got a kind of a two distributions called bimodal around the conversion rate. So the conversion rate can be at 5 percent for cold calls and should be at north of [00:21:00] 10 percent for follow up calls. And that also will, interestingly enough, follow up calls reduce the conversations per week just a little bit, because they tend to be longer conversations, but everything kind of comes out in the wash.
[00:21:14] Chris Beall: So, how many conversations should you get, by the way, per dial that's executed for you? Highly [00:21:20] variable, but the cold call world, about 5%. And in the follow up world, something around 12 or 13%. And then, when you kind of look at it overall, you've got dials going on, how many meetings should you have per dial.
[00:21:32] Chris Beall: I don't think this is a particularly compelling, KPI, unless your reps are doing the [00:21:40] dials, but it's kind of good to know. So a number of about 0. 6 percent is a decent number for meetings per dial. And after that, what are the drivers? So let's figure out how can we make the number that we want go up?
[00:21:55] Chris Beall: Well, you can make your average deal size go up, but your market probably determines [00:22:00] that. So I don't think you should push on that one, but that's that one can be interesting. Mostly the big correlation, interestingly enough, and obviously Well, pipeline per rep hour, let's just increase the number of rep hours and we increase the pipeline.
[00:22:18] Chris Beall: It seems too simple, [00:22:20] but it actually is the key to everything. The number one correlation between any of these KPIs and the number of dollars a pipeline produced per day or per week, or per month, whatever it is that you care about, it's actually primarily driven by [00:22:40] simply prospecting time. And a little bit of prospecting time goes a long way.
[00:22:45] Chris Beall: If your pipeline per rep hour is big $100,000 or even $10,000, just add more hours to get more pipeline. But what if I want to get my pipeline per hour up also, not just [00:23:00] add more hours, but add more pipeline? What do I do? Number one thing to do is increase the percentage of follow up calls, follow up pipeline generating prospecting calls compared to cold calls.
[00:23:14] Chris Beall: For some reason, folks get obsessed with cold calling, which they don't even like to do. And it's [00:23:20] like, well, we talked to this person, talked to this person. It's almost like scratching lottery tickets and hoping to get lucky and hope might be a strategy in the world of lottery tickets, not a great strategy in the world.
[00:23:31] Chris Beall: of Market Dominance. So what do you want to do? Well, you want to make sure that your reps are talking to people it [00:23:40] makes sense to talk to, and your follow up lists automatically are full of those people because they either expressed enough interest or your rep decided it was worth talking to them in the future, and they're easier to get a hold of.
[00:23:53] Chris Beall: So that's number one. Number two is fix your messaging so it resonates. Your [00:24:00] messaging probably is driving folks away because it contains too much value. And the value statements in your messaging, we do X and Y for companies like you, blah, blah, blah, are causing somebody to get to achieve their goal in the call.
[00:24:16] Chris Beall: Which is to get off this call with our self image intact by [00:24:20] simply saying, "Thanks, we're all set." So that's the next thing you should do. Why should you do that before you change your targeting, your actual lists? For a simple reason. Until you, you really get there and get to a point where you're confident that at least you don't have a structural, psychological issue in your messaging, [00:24:40] then until you get there, you don't really know how well it's working for targeting.
[00:24:45] Chris Beall: That is, you can't really tell what's resonating. You can get lucky sometimes. But you've got to have what we call a calibrated message. Then you need to get at least one of your reps to the point when, where when they deliver the message it is, consistent. You're going to get [00:25:00] consistent read. That comes back in the form of meeting set per rep hour.
[00:25:06] Chris Beall: So that's, a good one. It also actually comes back in conversion rate, meeting set per conversation. So you need to get to the point where, yes, we know what that, that is, what the conversion rate is, and how it ties to the reps [00:25:20] time. Then we're free to say, okay, now, what part of our list is this working well for?
[00:25:26] Chris Beall: And what part of the list is it not working well for? And you can do segmentation that is more fine grained than what you have today. This is actually a little bit tricky to do, but if you take the [00:25:40] folks that you're setting meetings with, then you take them off to a company like Rev, at GetRev. ai.
[00:25:46] Chris Beall: Fred Mondragon was on one of those. Market Dominance Guys talking about this. You can have them point to a whole bunch of companies that are in this exographics way, in a significant way, similar to the ones that you're setting appointments with. That is, [00:26:00] you don't have to even wait until you've got a whole bunch of business.
[00:26:03] Chris Beall: You're brand new, you're going after a new market. What's the first signal that says that you're going to have pipeline built? It's meetings set. So go and use that. You can also look at the pipeline that's being [00:26:20] set in the CRM based on the conversations. That's the, we call that the possible attribution.
[00:26:26] Chris Beall: So you have two very nice signals that you can use in order to improve your targeting. Once you've done all of that, then it makes sense to actually increase the amount of prospecting time. Until you've got it all calibrated, if you [00:26:40] just increase the prospecting time, you just irritate yourself and people.
[00:26:43] Chris Beall: And you actually, you can burn out a team and you can burn through lists in ways that don't make a great deal of sense. And you can also trick yourself into thinking that you're seeing things, positive and negative things, that aren't actually there. You got to get to the data to see the reality. So, that's that kind of [00:27:00] wraps it up.
[00:27:00] Chris Beall: That's a whole bunch of numbers, but I'm going to come back to the main one. Pipeline dollars per rep hour is the KPI that you need to be looking at. And to do that to have that number to hand, you have to have a way of measuring the actual rep hours spent prospecting and [00:27:20] tying that to the pipeline that's sitting in your CRM.
[00:27:23] Chris Beall: Again, it's something we do at ConnectAndSell as a convenience for you. It's just go ahead and hook up your CRM and we'll measure this every single day and break it down all the way to the individual rep, or to the list, or to the team, or whatever it is that you want, and you'll have that [00:27:40] KPI in hand, but without that KPI, it's really, hard, unless pipeline dollars that are being built per rep hour, it's really, hard to figure out the economics of a market dominance program.
[00:27:54] Chris Beall: So for Corey Frank, you got a day off, Corey, and Chris Beall, this [00:28:00] is Market Dominance Guys
 

Corey Frank and Chris Beall are once again joined by Fred Mondragon for this final segment from their visit. In the first two episodes with Fred, the guys covered the topic of The Seductive Shadowboxing of CRM data - Fit vs. Intent, Then the other side was discussed - Intent, Fit and the Future of Sales intelligence.
In this final segment, the trio explores how Rev's AI-powered platform is helping sales teams "find the zipper in the weasel suit," transforming weasels into top-performing pigs. Fred explains how Rev's "special purpose AI" leverages vast amounts of data to help reps identify and target their ideal customers, while Chris emphasizes the importance of engaging in trust-building conversations. Corey sees the immense potential in combining Rev's AI targeting with ConnectAndSell's powerful sales acceleration tools to solve the challenge of "Who do I go after next?" Join us for this episode, "Finding the zipper - helping weasels become top-performing pigs."
About Fred Mondragon:
Fred, a senior sales and business development executive with extensive experience at SaaS software companies, joined Rev in 2021. He has managed revenue generation channels at numerous successful startups and large companies, including TimesTen, Oracle, and most recently, Medallia, where he set up the channel sales and alliances function from scratch. Fred received his B.A. and MBA from Stanford.
Links from this episode:
Fred Mondragon | LinkedIn
The Sales Development Platform: Find your next best customer | GetRev.AI
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell

In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank are joined by special guest Griffin McGowan, a recent college graduate navigating the world of sales job hunting. The trio delves into the challenges and opportunities faced by young professionals seeking to launch their sales careers, with a particular focus on the crucial role of mentorship. Griffin shares his experiences interviewing with various companies and the valuable lessons he's learned, while Chris and Corey offer insights on what employers look for in new hires and the skills needed to succeed. The conversation also explores the idea that interviewees are not just looking for a job, but are essentially "hiring" a boss or mentor to guide them through their professional journey. Packed with wisdom gained from years of experience, this episode is a must-listen for recent grads, mentors, and interviewers alike. Join them for this episode, "New Grads: You're the Product, Choose Your Buyer."
 
Links from this episode:
Griffin McGowan on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
Corey Frank (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank from Branch 49. And as always, the sage of sales, the profit of profit, the Hawking of Hawking, the CEO of ConnectAndSell Chris Beal. Good afternoon, Chris, how are you? 
 Chris Beall (00:16):
Hey, I just finished watching Oppenheimer. So that Hawking of Hawking thing goes pretty deep right now. I'm into physics. 
Corey Frank (00:23):
Really? Okay, we'll have to think of one that rhymes my alliteration for o the [00:00:30] blank of Oppenheimer of, I don't know, origination. How about that? Sales origination. So Chris, we have a special guest. I think this is a first for us in our 230, 40 episodes plus of the market dominance guys, because we talk about at Branch 49 and certainly a ConnectAndSell is what you've helped us build. Here is the term uco, which is a finishing school for future CEOs. And today we have Griffin McGowan, [00:01:00] who is a future CEOI think from all senses and from what we know about No pressure Griffin, but we want to track your progress on LinkedIn here over the years. And Chris, you have an interesting story about how Griffin, and then we want to hear from Griffin about what stage in this finishing school are you at and what is this concept of [00:01:30] a finishing school and what are the pieces that maybe are missing or that Chris and I certainly can help contribute to newer folks who are entering in a profession. So welcome Griffin and Chris. How do we know Griffin and why is he in a hot seat here at the Dominus guys market? 
 Chris Beall (01:48):
Well, the short version of the story is I got fired. I can't remember what day it was probably Christmas Eve or something like that from AP Par when they decided to sell the company. And [00:02:00] I said, we don't need a senior vice president of product innovation anymore. Who does need one of those anyway, when you really think about it. But I had the job and so I was flying back from the east coast where I used to commute back and forth between here and the West coast and there. And I was sitting next to somebody that I just hit it off with and we had this great conversation for the six hours it takes to fly into the wind from one coast to another. And that was Brian McGowan, Griffin's dad. [00:02:30] And we talked about venture capital and we talked about building businesses, we talked about all manner of things you can talk about a lot in six hours. 
 Chris Beall (02:37):
And so, okay, that was fine. And we did some things later. Brian helped us out at ConnectAndSell in the commercial real estate arena. Got us a great meeting with JLL. I learned that commercial real estate as a world, whether you just don't care about their salespeople and so they'd hardly want to help them with something like ConnectAndSell. But it was fascinating and we had a thesis and we ran at it and had a great time. [00:03:00] And then a couple of years ago, Griffin, you can tell the story. Did you reach out to me? It had to be your dad basically saying, look, I don't know very many good people in business, but I know this guy is semi okay but better than nothing. So why don't you chat with them or something like that. 
Griffin McGowan (03:20):
Yeah, definitely. So it was my junior year of college I was planning on doing an internship at a big company, but right after hopping out of Covid, a lot of the internships [00:03:30] I was looking at were online internships, remote, and didn't believe I'd really get that great experience doing an online remote interview would be better to be in person in the office. So my dad thought of the idea, why don't I put you through my own little just background of meeting with a bunch of people, understanding how business works, getting that little internship feeling. And one of the things he specifically focused on was [00:04:00] reaching out to his network. That's huge. So that summer I spent probably two or three months talking to a hundred ish people like-minded individuals like yourself from CEOs, the CTOs to people just getting into the business world, just trying to understand and pick their rein a little bit, learn their background, get some recommendations. I wasn't sure where I was going with my career yet. Was looking in finance, was looking in real estate, and was looking in investment banking. So it was [00:04:30] just trying to put together the pieces before graduation. And I know we got the chance to talk, you recommended some great books. I went through your background about getting into sales and now that I've graduated last May, I've chosen the path of going into sales, understanding business, understanding the sales cycle. So that's where I ended up. 
Corey Frank (04:51):
And you went to a great school at University of Alabama, right? In business school? Yes. 
Griffin McGowan (04:55):
I graduated from the CulverHouse College of Business there. Big school, big football [00:05:00] program. So it was awesome going there. 
Corey Frank (05:02):
Sure, sure. Well this will be good for Chris, for you and I because you got have great pedigree, you have great raw material and moving into sales, what Chris and I want to do is help understand what needs to be thrown out and what needs to be added to this arsenal of wisdom and knowledge and skills for the next couple of years or so as you establish yourself [00:05:30] in sales. So does that sound okay, Chris? I think that'd be fun to explore this with Griffin. 
 Chris Beall (05:38):
Sounds outstanding. And by the way, Griffin, I didn't know you'd talked to so many people. I have to say I don't know another person who has executed a summer program that's got that kind of, I don't know, range SPECT depth. I mean that's a lot of conversations to ConnectAndSell. Our motto is that conversations matter. You went out and got [00:06:00] 'em that alone. I mean, who needs to interview you, right? I'd be done. It's like, okay, well whatever that is, go do more of that, but do it on my team. I may actually poke you away from whatever it is that you're going to be doing, but you probably want to work for a better company than ours. So 
Griffin McGowan (06:19):
Yeah, my dad always kind of worded around the bigger the network you have, the more opportunities you have. He's been my mentor through this whole process. So getting out [00:06:30] and talking to as many people made me more comfortable having conversations, even like this one, understanding background, picking up on some terms. So it's just overall increased my education. 
Corey Frank (06:43):
Well, the great Harvey McKay has, he's always asked what is the one piece of advice as a new grad entry into sales or even any profession is the key to his success that he would empower on folks is your net work [00:07:00] is your net worth and the more you can focus on your net, the more that your net worth will be year after year. And I thought that's a great piece of advice that he's preached for many, many years. So let's start Griffin with, I'm curious at the University of Alabama in the college of business, was there a culture, was there a mentorship [00:07:30] or an urging to move into the sales arena at a major university like this coming out of the college of business? Or was it business writ large as this behemoth, this nondescript entity of commerce in general? 
Griffin McGowan (07:46):
So I would say it was business as a whole, depending on where you wanted to take that you can take certain classes that lean more towards others. At the time I was really undecided, so I wasn't sure of the path I was going to take. I have friends and even colleagues now that kind of chose [00:08:00] more of the path going into real estate, going into finance, going directly into sales. So there's so many classes that offer it. Even picking a nice minor, you can really dive down into it deep a little bit more. The mentorship was great though. The teachers were great. All the classes were perfect. At the time I went, the more broader route with the major was just trying to figure out the path I wanted to take. 
Corey Frank (08:23):
Sure. No, I understand that. But it's something that I think that Chris and I have seen and we've talked about a few times in [00:08:30] our personal conversations over the years is that business has nothing to do with sales. Of course it has everything to do with sales, but somehow most of these patriot universities will give you the imprimatur, the certificate, the diploma, the degree and say, okay, go forth, young traveler into the world with this business degree. But somehow that [00:09:00] this concept, this science of sales is something that is picked up on the street. It's picked up on Instagram and 62nd first necessarily from the market dominance guys, right. Chris, wouldn't you say? 
 Chris Beall (09:17):
Yeah. Well it's really interesting. I mean I've been working on occasion, been privileged to get to do some stuff with Dr. Howard Dover at a University of Texas Dallas, who runs one of the greatest sales programs, [00:09:30] maybe the greatest university level sales program in the world. It's truly about sales and they learn theory, they learn practice, they learn from really solid folks who know what they're talking about. They learn from yahoos like me and it's very sales-focused, which is interesting and unusual. I do think, and again, I never went to business school, physics was hard enough for me, business would've been completely [00:10:00] overwhelming, but I don't have any experience with it directly as a student. But my impression has been business schools will nibble around the edge of sales, but they won't hit it head on as a true discipline that you can learn deeply and that is hyper important. 
 Chris Beall (10:18):
Your entire career is going to depend on it. And yet when you go to the other end of the spectrum and you say, okay, let's talk to a bunch of CEOs, one, they almost all came up through sales. It's [00:10:30] unusual otherwise. And two, they have sales chops, they can hold a conversation with a stranger. I'll go back to meeting Griffin's dad. So you get two guys like us sitting on an airplane for six hours, well, you're going to have a conversation and it's going to be a comfortable conversation. It's going to be far reaching. It had a lot of personal elements to it actually. That's one of the things that you learn I think when you're moving in business, moving [00:11:00] up, moving out and around is it's okay to be a person, but you don't have to be some sort of a statue or something, but you can be yourself and that's going to be helpful. 
 Chris Beall (11:11):
That's actually going to be part of the thing that you're doing. So I think it's all quiet, it's fascinating. I think sales is starting to make its way into business schools formally, but it's still considered to be more of an art that's picked up in the rough and tumble than a science [00:11:30] that you can learn. You could learn finance and modeling and stuff like that, I guess is what I would call it. So to me, I've gotten an opportunity to talk to a lot of young people about their careers and older people about their careers. And I always say the same thing, which is that in business you're responsible for helping folks get to a point where they can accept your help. That turns out to be a big part of business because everybody's busy [00:12:00] and everybody's busy doing whatever they're doing. And if you can be helpful, you have to break through that somehow. It's change management where it's not your organization, it's somebody else's. And the number one thing you need is you need to be respected. And in the world of business, if you've never sold anything, it's hard to get a lot of respect. 
Corey Frank (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, and the art of getting to the point where you've sold something, [00:12:30] we see this a lot, Chris, right? That people wander like a ship without a rudder from sales gig to sales gig to sales gig. It takes three, four sales gigs where they maybe have six months, 18 months in or before they settle or they find the one that they're now going to spend the next 3, 4, 5 years in. And it's as if they're looking for something and then they settle for something [00:13:00] or it's that, Hey, I wasn't successful at the sales gig because my manager, the leads, the market, the comp plan, the commute, what have you. And they do that a couple of times until they realize, wait a minute, I think that I've realized what the problem is and it's the person in the mirror and I better plant my feet. 
Corey Frank (13:19):
And so what a lot of great sales, mentors, sales skills are out there on the market today. If there's one thing over the last 15, [00:13:30] 20 years, Chris, it's that there is no excuse for a new grad not to have education in this profession without spending the thousands of dollars that you would have to do for a sales certification for the price of a couple of overdue charges at your local library or for a YouTube subscription, which is free. You should have no problem imparting some of the basics. So let's get into it. Griffin. So [00:14:00] you just interviewed with a number of companies, but particularly some of the interviews that you had just recently, I think Chris and I and the audience are curious of what are the type of questions for a sales role that the sales folks, leadership execs, peers, et cetera, we're asking somebody with you, with your qualifications to find out if there's a real snug fit in their organization. 
Griffin McGowan (14:27):
So definitely, yeah. The first question of course they're [00:14:30] going to ask is why sales? They want you to be able to understand that question and be able to express that question in a way that shows why you're interested in it. Of course, they want to hire somebody that's hungry for sales. And then that correlates into other questions about what skills do you possess that are like skills and then going into other questions about tough situations if you've dealt with in the past, either if it's a smaller job or working as a professional job, just trying to pick your brain a little bit, ask [00:15:00] you those tough confusing questions and then really see if you're able to bring up experiences and if you're able to sell yourself, I would say 
Corey Frank (15:13):
Anything surprising about some of the interview questions that you've been asked, 
Griffin McGowan (15:17):
I would say some companies that I've interviewed at some of the questions are a little, I would say overcoming a tough situation. Some of the questions don't correlate directly with sales. I [00:15:30] would say some of the questions are a little too out of the ballpark sometimes. I've had weird questions when it comes to tell us a time that you were last stressed out at work, which I understand how that would correlate to sales, but it's more of one of those questions that I believe it's if you search up the list of 25 basic interview questions, it aligns in that way. 
Corey Frank (15:54):
Well, that's interesting. Let me ask you, and Chris can chime in on [00:16:00] this, but from your perspective, Griffin, from this hunt, this searcher on to find the next gig in the profession of sales, do you think that it is more nature or more nurture to succeed in the profession? And what do you think of the folks who are interviewing you at these larger companies, what do you think they think the answer to that is? And I'd love Chris's opinion on this as well. 
Griffin McGowan (16:30):
[00:16:30] I would say it's both in the middle of that nature nurture. I think you really have to be driving and outgoing when it comes to it. And I would say the most difficult part about interviewing for a sales job is since Covid, we've noticed that the interview process has turned into online interviews not as much being held in person. And I think it's difficult to be able to sell yourself through a Zoom call and especially go through all these interview processes. It just doesn't work as well. I think more in person is where [00:17:00] it aligns. 
 Chris Beall (17:03):
Well, I'll jump on that. I mean this whole zoom thing has been fascinating to me. For one thing, we've been running this company remotely since 2014, so we got pretty used to not being together because I couldn't, I wanted top talent and I didn't want to pay for two floors of an office building that was a long commute to get there and kept the top talent far away where I [00:17:30] could get 'em anywhere. What I learned through that process is it's possible to be very human and very open and vulnerable and to have fun with people, whether you're in person or whether you're on a zoom, but you're going to have to bring it. It's you who has to bring that, we'll call it the softness, a willingness to have fun with people even though you're a [00:18:00] long distance away and you don't get to sit down right with them. 
 Chris Beall (18:02):
And in a way it's almost easier. But you've with that attitude and as Corey, my approach to talking to people is just to talk to 'em and see what happens. One of the things that I posted about this yesterday, I think one of the things I think is weird about sales and weird about a lot of business is there's this idea that we should know the outcome of the conversation before we start the conversation. That is the purpose of the conversation [00:18:30] is for me to get what I want. You decide to sign the contract or whatever it happens to be. That's the hopefully foregone conclusion. And yet the beauty of conversations is they always offer an opportunity to discover something that's completely unexpected and that's where new value shows up. So I'm wondering, Griffin, did you feel like in any of these interviews that anybody was trying to let the completely unexpected come out of your mouth? 
 Chris Beall (19:00):
[00:19:00] Or did you feel like there's going, okay, one from column A, one from column B, which was it, and then they're going to go talk about you among themselves and say, well, this area was like this and this area is like this. Whereas you could imagine folks talking about something and going, oh my God, that guy was just like it was to be in the same room with them and there's going to be a lot of sales on Zoom. We better pick this guy up. So what did you feel like? Were they checking boxes or were they having [00:19:30] fun? 
Griffin McGowan (19:31):
I would say it's a lot of checking boxes of what I've noticed that you can tell the questions that they're asking. You can see them staring to the screen next to them and you can hear them on the keyboard or writing on the side, taking notes. I would say a lot of the interviews are structured like that. They're given a set of questions to ask, seeing how you respond to them and then formulating and talking to the team after to come up with more of a conclusion. I would say only some of the interviews I'd have that I've seen more really [00:20:00] just trying to understand you as a person by just having natural conversation with you. Some of it seems just very robotic. 
 Chris Beall (20:08):
Fascinating. 
Corey Frank (20:10):
Have you been, again, without naming certainly any of these names, but when you've interviewed at some of these larger organizations, have you sat in awe of the person who is interviewing you and thought, my gosh, this is a scientist, [00:20:30] this is a master craftsman, this is somebody who I want to emulate, epitomize rise to that level from how they handle themselves and the charisma, how they light up a room, albeit virtually how they have the master of the art of the conversation? Or has it been candidly, maybe fairly underwhelming when you think of these large organizations should have the best rock stars on planet earth? 
Griffin McGowan (21:00):
[00:21:00] I think it's a mixed batch of both. I've applied for smaller companies and soft and tech. We're all the way up to bigger companies and it depends who you talk to. There's definitely been people that I've talked to that I've been blown away by wanting to work right under them, even viewing them as a mentor, even just having a 20 minute conversation with them. And then other account executives I've talked to that just sound robotic that you wouldn't even think they were in sales in the first place. So it's bouncing around. Within those interviews, [00:21:30] you'll talk to somebody that's a rockstar, then you'll talk to somebody that was just trying to get through the interview, hit all the boxes and just do their job. 
Corey Frank (21:39):
Well, first of all, love to hear that. I think that's one of the pieces that I think that I've learned from Chris over these 20 plus years of knowing him and as a mentor. And one of the pieces of advice that I received early on is you choose your boss, you're hiring for a boss and [00:22:00] a mentor as much as you're hiring for the job and whether it's a small organization, but somebody who's a dynamic esteemed craftsman, I would take that even at less pay than going for the resume builder, which I think would be the traditional VC funded company, Chris, right? With the fast track and the folks who are going through the robotic mentor, and sometimes we chase the vanity metrics of what shows on our LinkedIn or our resume [00:22:30] versus really what's going to do the best work to build our network down the road. Chris, any thoughts on that? Well, 
 Chris Beall (22:38):
To me it's the whole game. I mean, the fact of the matter is there are some people that are just dynamite to work with where the freedom that you have to bring your best out to explore well so you're going to be held to a high doing standard. That's a good thing. And my standard, which is if you're joining in order [00:23:00] to advance your career, I'm going to fire you immediately anyway. So that's not going to work out. We're going to actually accomplish something together and it better be something almost everybody would fail at, and that's the fun of it. If that's fun for you, then let's go do that thing. If it's not, then it's probably going to be worse than you think. So the question of what are you getting? I mean, you're actually buying something when you take a job with somebody, you're buying that boss. 
 Chris Beall (23:30):
[00:23:30] That's what you're buying. What are you buying them with? You're buying them with a chunk of your career with time and time you can't get back. So it's a very important purchase that you're making. And I think a lot of people don't realize that when you are looking around for companies to join up with and people to work with, you're the buyer. They think that they're the buyer. Trust me, it's like when you're raising venture capital, you are the product. [00:24:00] They don't have the product. All they have is money and time. It's not that interesting, but you're the product, you're the differentiated offering. That's why they have to talk to so many and you may have to talk to a lot of them. They got to talk to more of you. So I think it's the same kind of dynamic that, and I think it's when times are tough for getting certain kinds of jobs. 
 Chris Beall (24:20):
And Griffin, you mentioned before we started, this is not the easiest time in the history of life to get a sales job. A lot of people are going, Hey, give me somebody with the big Rolodex [00:24:30] or give me somebody who's got the depth of my industry or whatever it is that they've got going on and they've been doing cuts. And so especially in the SDR kind of end of things, which has become the traditional entry point, teams have gotten smaller. I don't know if the standards have gotten higher, they should, but the number of opportunities and the flow rate has gone down a little bit. But I think the most important thing for anybody to remember is that you're purchasing that boss. Now, one of the [00:25:00] challenges I've always had with big companies and why I haven't worked for a lot of them is you don't know what's going to happen to your boss. 
 Chris Beall (25:08):
Your boss is going to get reorged to some other part of the world. My wife Helen had a deal at Microsoft where she ended up with a switch out of bosses and it just became untenable. And then she managed to get back to the previous boss and then they reorged around something completely new, which is all this AI stuff. And [00:25:30] here she is now starting her own company. But when you think about it, that's what you're buying. You are purchasing a boss and you're purchasing them for as long as you want to get 'em, which we don't know how long that is, and it's probably the most important purchase you ever make. People talk about a house as nothing compared to a boss. 
Corey Frank (25:52):
Yeah, for sure. For sure. So with that Griffin, what would you [00:26:00] describe, maybe speaking personally, but also from maybe some of the peers that you graduated school with? What are folks at the stage of your career? What are you looking for in a boss? 
Griffin McGowan (26:13):
You're just looking for somebody that can give you a lot of guidance that can really help support your career. Talking to other people, I've noticed that some of my peers are looking for a job with high income where they can make money straight out of school. Some are looking for just that great entry level job that can [00:26:30] really position and set them up for a great opportunity into the future. Personally for me, I'm just looking to work around smart people, work at a great company, have a mentor, and of course at the end of the day, make money work somewhere with an uncapped commission where the sky's the limit of how I can earn money. 
 Chris Beall (26:51):
Uncapped commission see right there. That's a good answer to a good thing to say in any sort of interview situation around [00:27:00] sales, it's like, if the product's great enough and the opportunity is big enough, I work just for commission. You ever want to get a sales job, just go ahead and say that. I would go ahead and I would just work for straight commissioning and go, oh, I respect you already. I used to work as a fuller brush man in Phoenix in the summer. I was desperate to do something. I needed to make some money [00:27:30] within a week or two, and I found myself with my first all commission job. And it was so interesting because it's like so many things in life. Until you step across that threshold, you really don't know what that feels like and what it feels like is going to determine what you act like. So that was a great answer right there. Absolutely. 
Corey Frank (27:51):
It wasn't a 
 Chris Beall (27:51):
Interview question was just a great 
Corey Frank (27:56):
Right. Well, let's keep that vein going for another question [00:28:00] or two here. Griffin, what would you describe, let's say you were having a chat with my good friend Chris and myself here, and we were two sales leaders, and we asked you what's the strongest part of your sales process, this arsenal you bring to our organization? You're attracted by the mentorship and the untapped commission, maybe based off of the recent grad. A lot of folks are interested in the flexibility [00:28:30] and when the balance, et cetera, which are admirable things. But when you look at your sales arsenal of the things you need to succeed to tap into that on a commission, what would you say Griffin says is the strongest part of your sales process? What do you do really well? 
Griffin McGowan (28:47):
Yeah, I would say to reiterate, just working in a strong company where the onboarding is great. I've noticed interviewing with some companies, and I've had some offers sent out that there really isn't an onboarding process. [00:29:00] They just hold you to that, call 300 people a day, call 400 people a day, and that's all they really give you. They just give you a script and just with small stuff like that, they're just going to work you to death at that point. They don't really care on your professional development. They're just using you as another person in the door, another person to be on the phone just to call, call and just bleed you dry. 
Corey Frank (29:25):
Well, let's drill down into your specific skill set. If we were to [00:29:30] rank 23 and Me to do a stress test on your sales skills that you have as a recent grad, what are you better at than others? What's the strongest part of your Griffin McGowan skillset? 
Griffin McGowan (29:46):
I would say the big thing I've been focusing on is empathy and active listening, bringing that into sales, having empathy, being able to connect with the prospect that you're talking to, and then also being able to listen, understand their problem, [00:30:00] keep your mouth quiet, let some silences go out, but to let them overall talk because if you're going to be on the call with a prospect and you're dominating the call the whole time and not letting them speak and express things, you're not going to progress that any longer. Well, 
Corey Frank (30:17):
That's fascinating because that's what I've observed in this chat with you thus far. This 30 minutes that we spent is you are an active, engaged listener. You don't step on other people's lines. [00:30:30] And I think that's admirable to a large degree. I would push back just colloquially, just conversationally, that when you're engaged in a good debate, a good conversation, that there does need to be an element where there is some tension. Because if there's too much active listening where there's a pause and [00:31:00] it's a question, answer question, answer question, answer, the status is diminished. The supplicative behavior, although not overt, is there. So I would just, Christian, I know Rich, what your thoughts are on that, but you're a phenomenal listener already. We can tell and just know you and meet you. But I think in the realm of sales, especially as a newer sales rep representing a product, and if you're talking to a seasoned executive [00:31:30] like Chris in a discovery call, there needs to be this authenticity in a conversation. And I think there does need to be a little bit of tension introduced with some control. But Chris, what are your thoughts on that? 
 Chris Beall (31:47):
Hey, when you're in sales, you're catching whales on a five pound test line. You got to know on the letter run and when to set the hook. I mean, it's a delicate business, there's no doubt about it. [00:32:00] It is a lot more, I don't know, it's doing something like figure skating or something like that. It doesn't look like a big difference to the layperson, whether you're landing on that inside edge of the outside edge. But one of them, you go down and the other one you look great and things happen and there is a lot of delicacy. And that balance between empathy, which you need. I mean, Griffin, you're dead, right? You need it, right? And then the thing [00:32:30] that you bring, so you have this baseline of, Hey, I can listen. I like to listen. I like to know what's going on with you. But you've got the question of, well, why are you talking to somebody in the first place? Unless there's some conflict between what they have and what they want? You wouldn't be having the conflict uncovering the world without pissing anybody off too much, which is pretty interesting. So I hope it won't piss anybody off here. Going back [00:33:00] to the beginning, I'm catching a ferry in 24 minutes. That is a 22 minute walk from here. Beautiful. 
 Chris Beall (33:07):
Beautiful. Yeah, it's going to be fun. I want to thank Griffin for coming on. I want to recommend to anybody that by the time you just drop by, which will be like two or three days from now, he'll already have 10 job offers. But if you want to get ahold of him and make him a job offer just based on this, which I think you should, I think he's easy to get ahold of, right? Griffin, how does somebody get a hold of you? 
Griffin McGowan (33:30):
[00:33:30] LinkedIn, best phone number. Email my LinkedIn's Griffin McGowan. Feel free to reach out there. My email's [email protected]. Those are the best ways to contact me. 
 Chris Beall (33:43):
Wasn't crazy enough to put a cell phone out there. Just anybody wants to know. My cell phone's (408) 203-4321. Sometimes I answer, sometimes I don't. But when I do, it's very interesting. 
Corey Frank (33:56):
That's right. Well, we look forward to following your journey [00:34:00] here, Griffin, here at the Market Dominance. Guys, we want to have you back and listen to your first weeks of onboarding and see how well you really tap into the untapped commission that you certainly will enjoy. So with that, with Griffin and for Chris Beal from the CEO of ConnectAndSell, this is Corey Frank from the Market. Ominous Guys. Until next time.

Welcome back to the second part of our insightful conversation with Fred Mondragon, where we continue to explore the intricate world of sales intelligence. In our previous episode, the guys discussed the significance of prioritizing fit over intent when targeting potential customers. However, the most successful sales strategies understand that fit and intent must work hand in hand to achieve outstanding prospecting results.
Intent data has become an indispensable tool for sales teams seeking to identify and engage with prospects actively looking for solutions to their challenges. By analyzing online behavior, intent data offers invaluable insights into a prospect's buying readiness. When combined with a deep understanding of customer fit, sales teams can unlock the full potential of their prospecting efforts.
In this episode, Fred shares his expertise with Chris and Corey on effectively integrating intent data with fit-based targeting to create a powerful, holistic approach to sales. They examine the best practices for leveraging intent signals alongside demographic data, ensuring that you're targeting not only prospects who are ready to buy but also those who are the right fit for your solution. Join Chris, Corey, and Fred as they dive into the fascinating interplay between intent and fit, and discover how this synergy can help you achieve unparalleled success in your sales efforts. Listen to episode 218: Intent, Fit, and the Future of Sales Intelligence."
About Fred Mondragon:
Fred, a senior sales and business development executive with extensive experience at SaaS software companies, joined Rev in 2021. He has managed revenue generation channels at numerous successful startups and large companies, including TimesTen, Oracle, and most recently, Medallia, where he set up the channel sales and alliances function from scratch. Fred received his B.A. and MBA from Stanford.
Links from this episode:
Fred Mondragon | LinkedIn
The Sales Development Platform: Find your next best customer | GetRev.AI
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedIn

Is your sales team seduced by intent data, only to end up shadowboxing with poor-fit prospects? In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, hosts Chris Beall and Corey Frank explore a game-changing alternative with guest Fred Mondragon, CRO of GetRev.ai. Discover how "exographics" - AI-powered insights into how companies operate - enable sales teams to efficiently target ideal customers from the very first mile. Learn why fit beats intent when it comes to maximizing sales efficiency and dominating your market. If you're a CEO or sales leader looking to slash wasted effort and turbocharge your prospecting, don't miss this deep dive into GetRev.ai's revolutionary approach. Tune in now and point your reps in the right direction from the start in this episode, "The Seductive Shadowboxing of CRM Data."
About Fred Mondragon:
Fred, a senior sales and business development executive with extensive experience at SaaS software companies, joined Rev in 2021. He has managed revenue generation channels at numerous successful startups and large companies, including TimesTen, Oracle, and most recently, Medallia, where he set up the channel sales and alliances function from scratch. Fred received his B.A. and MBA from Stanford.
Links from this episode:
Fred Mondragon | LinkedIn
The Sales Development Platform: Find your next best customer | GetRev.AI
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
 

Corey Frank and Chris Beall share eye-opening insights from their recent marketing conference experience that every CSO and sales manager needs to hear. Chris uncovers a startling truth: nearly all MarTech tools are based on the misguided belief that you can't achieve success by simply calling prospects and having meaningful conversations. He challenges this notion head-on, emphasizing the immense power of genuine dialogue in building trust and gathering valuable information.
Our Market Dominance Guys also explore the critical difference between a mere phone call and a true phone conversation, revealing how these conversations can dramatically amplify your downstream marketing efforts. This episode is packed with actionable insights that will help you leverage the power of conversations to dominate your market and drive sales success. Listen to episode 216: Conversations, the Kryptonite of MarTech?
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
Corey Frank (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the Sage of Sales, the Hawking of Hawking and the profit of profit. Chris Beal. Welcome to Phoenix, Arizona and the campus Grand Canyon University for an onsite edition of the Market Dominance. Guys,
Chris Beall (00:17):
I'm telling you onsite, anybody, by the way, who has a chance to come to Grand Canyon University and visit this incredible campus and meet these incredible people and come in and actually hobnob with the Branch 49 team. I say, book your tickets now. Avoid that spring training thing because unless you really want to come and get some baseball too, because there's a lot of great baseball this time of year around here. There
Corey Frank (00:42):
It sure is. And what brings Ms. Ucci and Mr. Beal to Phoenix and the greater Phoenix area, Scottsdale, Arizona if you had a very interesting couple of days at a marketing conference. That's where I wanted to have a special edition of the market. Dom guys talk, not just about the conference and some of the learnings, but just kind of an above the line treatise, if you will, manifesto of what your rant for 2024 is about basic MarTech tools. So Chris, what did you learn at this conference where I'm taking deep
Chris Beall (01:19):
Breath? Well, I learned two things. So the conference is great. It was really well organized. It's in Phoenician, so it was beautiful. It's put on by Emerald, I think who puts it on, and they've got a bunch of conferences, so I highly recommend they do great conferences, go to their conferences, and I was invited to this one with Helen by our friend Scott Gordon and Lamb Alliance. They're of salutary data, so they kindly invited us. They were going and they had kind of a discount coupon so to speak, and so well, but marketing conference, do I really want any marketing, right? I mean, I love marketing, but marketing tools and technologies and services have always struck me as there's something about 'em that puts me off a little bit. But I decided, Hey, I want to go, Helen, you want to go? Yeah, let's go.
(02:08):
So we drove up a couple hour drive, and here's my impression twofold. One is actually about ConnectAndSell, which is surprising, and that is almost everybody, by which I mean about 35, 40% of the sales reps who were there pitching these marketing tools when they saw who I was and where I was from, as Helen said, you're actually a little bit of a thing. I said, yeah, well, it's kind of a thing that they would go to ConnectAndSell. I used that in and then they would cast it out in their mind when I was at this company 10 years ago, six years ago, nine years ago, whenever it was, and I love that all I had to do is push a button and talk to somebody and make this sort of a dance. Like, oh, I'd sit back in my chair and it was all smiles and all that kind of stuff.
(02:57):
And some really senior people were like, yeah, yeah, I really know. ConnectAndSell, blah, blah, blah. And one of them said, there's something wrong with you guys. Your technology is so powerful, you should be dominating the entire world, and I'm going dominant, market dominant must not be doing something right. So that was part of it, but that's a minor part. The major part was I went and talked to all the vendors. It was kind of a little bit of a quiet conference. It had some sessions. I didn't do any of the sessions except I went and listened to ZoomInfo and technology advice together, and I like Henry a lot. So it was great to go and sit and have lunch and get to talk to him for a minute afterwards. That was kind of enlightening. They're bringing in what they call second party data to go with first party data, which is the stuff you have third party data, which is the stuff ZoomInfo has.
(03:43):
But what about second party data, which is published data, but it's not the data, it's the fact that people who might be your potential buyers have come to consume it. So from publishers. So that was interesting, but the number one thing I walked away with was this, and I may be getting this wrong, but my impression is every single piece of marketing technology that's out there is predicated on one concept, and that is that you cannot get a conversation by just calling somebody and talking to them that you must go through some, what I call textual time-based gymnastics in order to either cajole, influence, trick, herd, whatever, somebody to come to your website and talk to you. And so I thought, how interesting, and I'm starting to look at this. I'm thinking, how many hundreds of millions of dollars have gone into the development of all this technology. That's based on what I believe is a fundamentally false premise.
(04:48):
As you know, Corey, we connect about 4.5 million conversations, live conversations with decision makers every year at ConnectAndSell. So I'm thinking this is just interesting to have a whole industry built around a notion that you can't talk to anybody because if you could talk to people, then you would use every one of those tools differently. You would use the ad