Coaching

Today they welcome Helen Fanucci, author of "Love Your Team" and CEO/Co-Founder of Pipeline Power, for a candid look at why sales coaching fails - and how to fix it.
The stats are startling: only 0.01% of recorded sales conversations are ever reviewed, and 83% of sales managers have never received formal training. Through their discussion, the trio reveals practical solutions, including Helen's upcoming AI-powered coaching platform allowing sales managers to practice difficult conversations in a safe environment.
From Branch 49's "finishing school for future CEOs" approach to why cultural transformation must precede digital transformation, this conversation challenges conventional wisdom about sales leadership. Whether you're a seasoned CSO or a newly minted sales manager, you'll gain fresh perspectives on building and nurturing high-performing sales teams through systematic coaching.
Link to Free Chatbot tied to Chapter 11 of "Love Your Team."https://chatgpt.com/g/g-67539b3c0c2081918142398d78ac3de9-love-your-team-managing-underperformers

AI has the potential to revolutionize sales management by providing insights from aggregated conversations, freeing up time for managers to focus on coaching and engaging with their teams more effectively.
Chris Beall and Helen Fanucci dive deeper into the evolving world of sales management in the era of AI. They explore how artificial intelligence can revolutionize coaching strategies and provide valuable insights from countless sales conversations. Helen emphasizes that "it's not enough to just give the sellers goals. The managers have to continue to be engaged to get the outcomes expected." Chris and Helen discuss the potential for AI to give managers back time to do their "real job" - identifying and executing on coaching opportunities. They touch on the emotional challenges of leadership, with Chris noting that "the higher up you go in an organization, the more you're emotionally challenged every day." This episode offers a forward-thinking look at how AI can empower sales leaders to focus on what truly matters: developing their teams and driving results in an increasingly complex business landscape. Listen to this episode: AI-Powered Coaching: The Future of Sales Management.
Listen to the first part of this conversation.
Listen to all episodes with Helen Fanucci as their guest.
Links from this episode:
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell

In this final segment with Brian Perks, Corey Frank, and Chris Beall, the conversation takes a fascinating turn into the human side of data-driven sales. They explore the delicate balance between leveraging advanced AI and maintaining genuine human connections. Brian shares insights on the power of sincerity in sales, while Chris delves into the psychology of risk in business relationships. The trio discusses the evolution of sales from mere territory management to building trust in a world where vendors can make or break careers. They touch on the importance of emotional intelligence in data interpretation and the art of restraint in using information. This episode is a must-listen for sales leaders looking to navigate the complex interplay of technology, data, and human psychology in modern sales. Join them for "The Human Element in Data-Driven Sales: Sincerity, Risk, and Trust."
Listen to the full series with Brian Perks here.
 
Links from this episode:
5x5Brian Perks on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell

In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall challenges conventional wisdom about pre-call research in cold calling. Drawing from a recent real-world experience, Chris dives deep into the mathematics and psychology behind sales conversations.
Is extensive research before each call truly beneficial, or could it hinder your team's effectiveness? Chris presents a compelling case that might surprise even seasoned sales professionals. He explores the delicate balance between being informed and being presumptuous and how this impacts your prospects' crucial emotional journey.
Whether you're a sales trainer, leader, or CSO, this episode offers fresh insights that could revolutionize your approach to cold calling and discovery meetings. Chris breaks down the true goals of these interactions and provides a framework for achieving them more efficiently.
Prepare to challenge your assumptions and discover a potentially game-changing perspective on pre-call research and sales strategy.
Here is the math from this episode:
Conversation Statistics for Chris' Team That Day:
Total conversations: 438
Total meetings set: 30
Total dials: 12,522
Dial-to-connect ratio: 28.59 dials per conversation (12,522 / 438)
Average conversation length: 78 seconds
Research Time vs Conversation Time: Let R = research time per dial attempt Let C = average conversation time Let D = dials per conversation
Research time per conversation = R * D Conversation time = C
Equation: R * D : C
Using the numbers provided: 3 minutes * 28.59 : 78 seconds 180 seconds * 28.59 : 78 seconds 5,146.2 seconds:  78 seconds
This simplifies to approximately 66 seconds of research to achieve 1 second of conversation
Chris rounds this to 90 minutes (5,400 seconds) of research to achieve 78 seconds of conversation
Research to Conversation Ratio: Research time : Conversation time = 5,400 : 78 Simplified ratio ≈ 69 : 1
This means for every 69 seconds spent on research, only 1 second is spent in actual conversation.
Efficiency Calculation: If a rep makes 60 dials per day: 60 dials / 28.59 dials per conversation ≈ 2.1 conversations per day
Actual performance: 438 conversations / 22 reps ≈ 19.91 conversations per rep per day

In the second part of our conversation with Richard Rabins, CEO and Co-Founder of Alpha Software, we delve into the delicate balance of using humor effectively in sales. Chris Beall shares insights on guiding prospects through emotional transitions, from fear to trust, using the power of laughter and surprise. However, the discussion also explores the risks of pushing humor too far and the importance of knowing when to rein it in. Richard and Corey examine the idea of teaching humor, drawing parallels between sales and the world of comedy and performance. They emphasize the significance of confidence, vulnerability, and the ability to read your audience to avoid alienating prospects. Join us as we navigate the comedic conundrum of harnessing wit without crossing the line, and discover how to strike the perfect balance for building genuine relationships with prospects.
About our Guest:
Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com.
Links from this episode:
Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/
Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
[00:25:51] Corey Frank: Sure. I think you're getting into a different level of rapport building, Chris, I think it'd be a good reminder to talk about the [00:26:00] swirling blue orb and the, the reason why that works, because I think that ties in a lot of what Richard is saying here with regards to, building that, that rapport, which in essence is.
[00:26:13] Corey Frank: Moving from fear to trust, is it not? 
[00:26:16] Chris Beall: Right, I mean, we're always trying to help somebody along this [00:26:20] this emotional journey to a next emotional state where we can maybe help them see something new that might be of value to them. So it's always just one emotional transition. So fear to trust is one, trust to curiosity is another, curiosity to commitment is another.
[00:26:38] Chris Beall: And emotional [00:26:40] transitions are tricky things. We actually prefer to hold on to our current emotional state, even if we don't like it, because it is a comfort to us To feel as we feel. We really don't want to change anything in our life, much less how we feel. So in sales, we're trying to help somebody [00:27:00] change something in their life.
[00:27:01] Chris Beall: And if we cold call them, that something is, they're afraid of us. And we want to help them change that to being trusting of us, right? And it's actually why the second sentence in the breakthrough script that we teach. The one right after throwing yourself under the bus, which is raising the [00:27:20] tension, and it is surprising, to this little piece of relief, and it has the chuckle in it.
[00:27:24] Chris Beall: By the way, when people laugh, other people laugh. Right? Nobody knows why you're laughing, but you laugh because others are laughing. Laughter is, as they say, contagious in the same way that yawning is, but in a way that sneezing is not. At least, we hope, right? It ain't to sneeze [00:27:40] and have everybody in the room suddenly sneeze.
[00:27:42] Chris Beall: I mean, you might get a pandemic or something like that. But this, this business I know I'm an interruption. I mean, nobody expects to hear that. And, and almost nobody in sales, by the way, is confident enough to throw themselves all the way under the bus and have it [00:28:00] go ba bump, ba bump, ba bump, because buses, by the way, have that many sets of wheels, and then it backs up over you and goes ba bump, ba bump, 
[00:28:07] Richard Rabins: ba 
[00:28:07] Chris Beall: bump, right?
[00:28:08] Chris Beall: Now you're really under the bus. And then how do you switch your voice sincerely to being playful? A playful and curious voice is what allows somebody to have that relief. [00:28:20] from your initial statement, which is you throwing yourself under the bus, which creates tension. You talk often, Corey, about tension being important in sales.
[00:28:30] Chris Beall: Well, the story that starts out with, I just ambushed you, has got tension built into it, but it has more tension if you amplify it verbally. I know I'm an interruption. [00:28:40] And then you change your voice to PlayfulCuriousCat. Can I at 27 seconds tell you why I called? If you really want to see this in action, hear this in action over and over, just go out to James Thornburg's LinkedIn profile and listen to one James Thornburg video after another.
[00:28:58] Chris Beall: He will often end one [00:29:00] that's really brutal. He has a recent one that has somebody at the very end just going off on him, and he has to bleep most of it out. But right before that, he does his standard, what would you say to that at the end, which is so is it okay if I end this with the joke? What do you call five coal collars at the bottom of the ocean?
[00:29:19] Chris Beall: And [00:29:20] we only ever hear his side. Pause. He says, a good start. And then he goes on, right? Well, he says it, and it's really funny, because James Thornburg has great comedic timing. And he's very, very dry. He's the Stephen Wright of sales, of cold calling, right? He is a funny guy who can talk to you also about [00:29:40] slaughtering pigs, and make that seem somewhat amusing, even though that's a serious business.
[00:29:44] Chris Beall: So he raises pigs. It turns out he doesn't, he doesn't go slaughter other people's pigs. He kind of sticks to his own, right? It says he and his pigs have an agreement. This is how it's going to end. I have an animal example, by the way. This one [00:30:00] back in the first days of COVID, literally the very first days, Helen, who was at Microsoft, was on a happy hour.
[00:30:09] Chris Beall: They used to do this. They called them like team happy hours and everybody was introducing their pets and I was somewhere else in the room where I couldn't be seen, but it's a [00:30:20] happy hour. So alcohol is going to be involved and I'm listening and I'm just wondering where she is going to go when they come to the pet thing because Helen doesn't have any pets and what she says, I didn't anticipate.
[00:30:34] Chris Beall: It was funny to me, but I managed to participate. by Pantomime. Pantomime can be pretty funny, [00:30:40] actually, if you are lucky enough to get a chance. She says, well, everybody's been showing their pets. I actually don't have, well, I actually do have an animal. He's 6 '1 goes 2' 15 and at that point I walk up with a bottle of Blanton's and pour her a shot.
[00:30:57] Chris Beall: She says he fetches. And, [00:31:00] and he pours. That's funny. So he fetches and he pours became a trope joke, actually, and has run ever since then. Covid's now, that part is 3 years behind us, right? And it's still pretty funny. Fetches and pours, and that became a trope joke. kind of how I was known right up until the point where she renamed me as [00:31:20] almost a thing.
[00:31:21] Chris Beall: So now I am almost a thing that fetches and pours, which makes no sense whatsoever, but is also somewhat funny. That kind of thing, it is noticing, right? What was I doing? I was noticing that this situation is evolving and I could have just not done anything, but I [00:31:40] prepped. And why did I do that? What am I selling?
[00:31:42] Chris Beall: I'm selling this. a group of people that she's now not going to go to the office with, Helen, their boss. It is cool. You can hang with her. You can bring your problems to her. You, it's a tiny contribution, [00:32:00] but it had that effect, right? By the way, what can you do to develop humor? I don't know if this works for most people, but some people when they go to stand up classes to learn standup comedy.
[00:32:11] Chris Beall: where you're being workshopped over and over and over and over and over, you're workshopping over and over in order to be able to respond to something. What [00:32:20] you're learning to do is to pay attention to what the other person says within the context and respond in a way that reframes so that the dialogue goes forward and it might get to somewhere funny.
[00:32:32] Chris Beall: And that ability to notice, respond with reframing, and take the conversation in a direction that has a [00:32:40] positive resolution. In their case, standing up is funny, that is a good thing to practice, whether you will learn to be funny by doing it, I can't say, but I can certainly say the greatest cold callers I've ever known are people who are stand up comedians.
[00:32:58] Richard Rabins: Just to add to [00:33:00] that, I had the fortune or misfortune of going to business school. And, so I get the newsletters and magazines from the school. And I noticed that they had profiled a student. [00:33:20] who had gone off and started a company and was doing really innovative, good stuff.
[00:33:26] Richard Rabins: And she was talking about her experience. This was at the Sloan School, the MIT Business School. She was talking about her experience and that the best course she [00:33:40] took was apparently they started a course where the professor, is a joint professor at the business school, but also teaches drama.
[00:33:53] Richard Rabins: She teaches theater drama. And so it's [00:34:00] You know, I mean, humor is, it's part of a performance. It's comedy part is a performance. Getting back to your question, which is a really practical, interesting question is, can you teach humor? I suspect you're not going to turn someone who innately doesn't have a [00:34:20] sense of humor into someone who does, but I think you can certainly, sand the edges significantly.
[00:34:27] Richard Rabins: And it's, it's possible you could actually. Make progress in that area.
[00:34:38] Corey Frank: Yeah, I would, I would think you [00:34:40] can with a lot of noticing practice. Like we talked about the synopsis that are broken. There's something that maybe our listeners can look at. There's a rapper by the name of, of, Harry Mack. And he was just, there's a video that you can see it on YouTube and, and TikTok and [00:35:00] Instagram.
[00:35:01] Corey Frank: And he went into the New York Yankees clubhouse and he asked them for seven random words, a raid. OpeningDay, Sandwich. It's just non sequitur type of, type of words all globbed together. And he proceeded [00:35:20] to put together an M & M 50 cent level quality reduced wrap in real time. And it was incredible to the point where You know, it's not maybe our type, type of music, but the artistry and the [00:35:40] craftsmanship that went into developing the ability to see forward.
[00:35:46] Corey Frank: Right? Writing a sonnet in real time. I have to see, okay, A, B, A, B, A, B, right? The iambic, pentameter, right? I have to see ahead two or three stanzas to make sure this is the right number. And I think [00:36:00] that people who are very good at it. Warren Claff, Chris, certainly you're a master at it. Other public speakers that we know with, with this persona, this confidence, they have this ability to almost have this matrix out of time process to see time in reverse.
[00:36:19] Corey Frank: [00:36:20] And, I, I don't know of any other way to do that, except to put yourself out there, like you were talking about, about a good standup workshop and get your butt kicked. I'm sure. As James Thornburg has documented hundreds, if not thousands, of [00:36:40] calls in his years working with ConnectAndSell and BridgePoint, is that the latter performances are much better than the earlier performances.
[00:36:52] Corey Frank: And I would bet, Richard, that you are going into a presentation today, or Chris, you going into a [00:37:00] present today, you have nothing to lose. And so you're more at ease, and you're apt, more apt to notice things that are different or unusual in the world, than if you're a newer sales rep. You're so focused on your deck, the presentation, the body language of your prospect.
[00:37:18] Corey Frank: What are your What are your [00:37:20] thoughts on, on on that? 
[00:37:23] Richard Rabins: I think that's a really interesting point that I keep thinking about, I keep coming back to the fact that you need to understand that the other person is a human being. And, And [00:37:40] anything that breaks the expectation so the expectation is you're going to come in there, give a PowerPoint, very formal.
[00:37:50] Richard Rabins: It's not, it's not like initially a fun experience. It's not unpleasant. It's not a fun experience. But if you can, walk [00:38:00] in. And let's say, depending where you are, you look out the window and you see some mountain, you say, wow I didn't realize you guys were this close. Can you ski or whatever?
[00:38:12] Richard Rabins: You immediately, you, you change the atmosphere of the room. [00:38:20] And so I do think that When you're a young, inexperienced person, you don't think you've got license to behave like a human being. You, you feel like you have to follow in a robotic fashion. And as soon as you can get rid of that sort of [00:38:40] inhibition, and, and just be more confident.
[00:38:42] Richard Rabins: And, and also I think I realize that Even if it's a really important meeting or call, that if it doesn't go well, the world doesn't end. It's not the end of the world. I mean, how many times, Malcolm Gladwell [00:39:00] the author's interesting guy. So, in one of his recent books, he talks about the concept of, you can't take yourself too seriously, that there's a, a young girl.
[00:39:15] Richard Rabins: Somewhere, she's in high school, she's really, really good at chemistry. She loves [00:39:20] chemistry and she's number one in her school in chemistry. And her dream is she wants to go to Caltech or MIT, to go and study chemistry. She applies, she doesn't get in. She thinks the world has just ended. And [00:39:40] but she ends up going to another school, very good school, chemistry, and does brilliantly.
[00:39:45] Richard Rabins: And the reality is all the kids who go to MIT or Caltech, they were always probably number one or number two in their class. maths and physics. They come to MIT and by [00:40:00] definition, 50 percent of them have to be in the bottom half of the class. There's no avoiding it. You can't, so all of a sudden she might've gotten to MIT and there was a 50 percent chance she would be in the bottom half of the class.
[00:40:16] Richard Rabins: That would do a number on her ego and her self [00:40:20] confidence. So what, what William Gladwell describes, she goes to this other school, and she's like the top student in that class, and her career blossoms because it didn't affect her, her self confidence. Firstly, the lesson there is, [00:40:40] you didn't get in, should I literally jump off the next building, or do I say, okay, Plan B, and move on, and On a more serious tone, I think they've improved this at MIT, but MIT used to have the highest suicide rate of any college [00:41:00] for exactly that reason.
[00:41:02] Richard Rabins: You get these 17, 18 year old kids, their whole sense of self is tied up in how brilliant they are. And now all of a sudden there's this wet slap across the face. And in fact, When I was there, there was a building called the Green Building, the [00:41:20] tallest building, and they had to make sure that the top of the building wasn't accessible, because it was a perfect way to jump off the building.
[00:41:31] Chris Beall: Wait a second. MIT engineers are capable of taking a car apart and reassembling it in your dorm room. Certainly they can get to an inaccessible part of [00:41:40] the 
[00:41:40] Richard Rabins: building. That's true. Well, they, they still did in fact have. the high suicide. So there was a lot of successful, but you know, it's, it just, yeah, I think the whole thing is, if you're relaxed, I think Chris alluded to, if you're relaxed, the people around you all relax.[00:42:00] 
[00:42:00] Richard Rabins: And that, that's a good thing. 
[00:42:03] Chris Beall: You gotta have the goods. I mean, this is one of the, one of the things you gotta have, right? You have to be a very serious, hardworking student of whatever it is that you're an expert in. I mean, in sales, the job is pretty simple. You're an expert who is on their [00:42:20] side.
[00:42:20] Chris Beall: That's it. It's hard to establish yourself as being on their side. Because people are naturally wary of somebody who says they're on their side. You can't just come out and say it. Hi, I'm an expert. I'm on your side. Now let me see if I can find a pen here so you can sign this deal, right? It's a, it [00:42:40] doesn't work like that.
[00:42:41] Chris Beall: You're helping somebody come by themselves to the conclusion that you're an expert and you're on their side. Well, being on their side, you don't have to be funny. It turns out. But you're showing a little bit of vulnerability by your willingness to try to be funny. That is, you're actually going out on a limb.
[00:42:58] Chris Beall: If you say something [00:43:00] that might be funny, you're exposing yourself to the criticism of why are you being funny? That's not a funny thing, right? So you're actually going a little ways toward being on their side by being willing to be funny, but you're also going a long ways to being an expert by having the confidence to be [00:43:20] funny, and those two things go together in a kind of mutually reinforcing sort of way.
[00:43:27] Chris Beall: But once you get that going, you better not go too far with either one. 
In our next episode, we wrap up our conversation with Richard Rabins and delve into the fascinating cultural differences in humor and how they can impact sales interactions. Join us as Chris and Corey share their dream retirement gigs and reveal a surprising fact about Richard's true passion that explains why he's such a master at connecting with others.

Welcome to this special Market Dominance Guys compilation episode featuring highlights from some of our most downloaded episodes in the first quarter of 2024.
In these segments, Chris Beall and Corey Frank are joined by expert guests Shane Mahi and Helen Fanucci to explore critical topics for sales and marketing leaders navigating the evolving landscape of go-to-market strategies, data-driven targeting, and the impact of AI on authentic human connection.
You'll hear eye-opening insights on the future of software development in the age of generative AI, why conversations are the often-overlooked key to unlocking your total addressable market, and how to coach reps effectively by providing immediate feedback.
Helen shares her framework for leveraging proprietary data to identify your best opportunities and align resources accordingly. The discussions also examine the challenges of territory assignment and the power dynamics of sales leadership.
Shane and our hosts dive into balancing the power of AI tools like ChatGPT with the irreplaceable value of genuine, trust-building conversations. And you won't want to miss Shane's story of how combining the entrepreneurial operating system with AI helped him rebuild his business in record time after previous setbacks.
These clips from Chris, Corey, Shane, and Helen will help you learn how to position your organization for market dominance through the right mix of data-driven strategy, technological leverage, and authentic human engagement. 
 
Links from this episode:
Shane Mahi on LinkedIn
MEGA.ai
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Branch49
Chris Beall on LinkedIn
ConnectAndSell
Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn
Full episodes for this segment:
#10: EP215: Sales Artisans: Thriving Alongside Smart Bots
#9: EP216: Conversations, The Kryptonite of MarTech?
#8: EP213: Ethical AI Selling - Reality vs Hype
#7: EP208: Balancing Relationships and Efficiency in AI Sales
#6: EP209: Your Only Product Is the Meeting
#5: EP214: The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity
#4: EP212: Reps Dread It, Managers Avoid It: Coaching
#3: EP211: Conversations Convert to Pipeline Power
#2: EP210: Sales Targeting Beyond LinkedIn and Navigator
#1: EP145: Building Trust Must Always Be Step One
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
#10: EP215: Sales Artisans: Thriving Alongside Smart Bots
The economy always gets reshaped around new capabilities in ways that surprise everybody who is thinking about it. So it's never like that. This is going up and this is going down and it crosses or whatever. It goes along as it goes along with increasing efficiencies in certain areas until somebody innovates a flip and the flip turns it on its head and now it's new, whatever the new thing is, and now you have the old way competing with the new way and the new way since it's enabled by new material science. By that I mean a new capability that does tricks you couldn't do before. It always wins, but it always starts where it has the obvious advantage. The skyscrapers are not out in the desert, they're in Manhattan. It depends where you look, but once you get 'em going in Manhattan, I pretty much guarantee you the little three story building that you used to have that you had some offices in or whatever. First the offices go, then the condos and it's all skyscrapers. Take a look at New York. It's all up, right? Take a look at Des Moines. It's a little up. Take a look at Scottsdale or Tenny. It's just how it goes.
Shane Mahi (01:09:35):
You can even see in Dubai, Dubai was what? Flatland desert. DJ Khalifa Burj Khallifa  is the biggest one up. And now, I don't know if you guys are familiar with the line in Saudi Arabia, same kind of concept, complete desert. Now there's what, a quarter mile long, two pieces of glass inside a metropolis that is going to be heavily tech-orientated, flying cars, all kinds of weirdness. So if Saudi's doing stuff like that, at what point do the outbound agencies or even tech companies realize we've got to kind of adopt the same kind of thing?
Chris Beall (01:10:08):
For sure.
Shane Mahi (01:10:08):
Who is that going to be? Chris, Chris and Corey. Who do you guys have your eyes out on in those markets who are going to be those game changers, those market shapers for AI and tech in our space?
Chris Beall (01:10:22):
Who I don't know. I don't know and I don't care. I don't know and I don't care. I know who the big early winner is going to be with ai. This is actually fairly simple. Microsoft pulled off a trick that nobody even thought of and that trick was to invest 10 billion to get an unlimited royalty free forever license to not only the tech, but all the learning that goes into it, all the training. That was a very good trick because they've always been in the business of helping folks build new things. And the most obvious thing about all this gen AI stuff isn't what it does to sales, which is trivial. It's what it does to what used to be called software development. Software development essentially is in the same state right now as a sugar cube is in a hot cup of tea. You can be pretty sure that game is over right now.
#9: EP216: Conversations, The Kryptonite of MarTech?
Yeah. Is there a natural aversion to that or is it just Occam's razor where it's too simple? Or they're going about a complex formula, methodology, and technology pathway. When you forget to dance with who you are, what are my prospects? What are my people in my TAM saying, what are the people in my ICP? What do they want? What pain do I solve? And gosh, if I could just have a conversation, not send them a survey, not send them an email, but actually have a conversation that can open up these veins of trust that that's the key versus carpet bombing them with content, with white papers, with Gartner magic quadrants, and there's no dialogue there. That's monologue,
Chris Beall (15:20):
Right? This is kind of the awkwardness that I noticed in the entire thing. I'd asked this question, what if you could just talk to people? It's like, oh, well, you can't just tell Chris spiel that you can't talk to people. That one doesn't work. You can't go down that road. I'm sorry. No, you can't talk to people. Then it's like, well, but you'd still need, and then they'd tell me that you'd still need, and I tend to agree. I mean, my thing I was telling folks is, look, I think all the digital stuff is fantastic, but why not cheat by starting with the conversation? You can't get enough conversations for it to be worth cheating. And I said, well, isn't go to a SDR or BDR world if you had 40 conversations a day with targets, that's the equivalent of 40 targeted Google ads that caused somebody to go to your website. So that's pretty good right there. What would 40 targeted Google ads to a vice president or whatever you're trying to reach that actually caused them to go to your website, what would that cost? And they generally go like 30, 40 bucks each. Well, that's $1,600 a day without any meetings of value that you're getting from the advertising of just having conversations. Surely you're not paying your BDRs $1,600 a day. There's margin in there.
(16:39):
And the idea that, oh, talking to people could be a form of marketing that is, I think where the edge is. It's almost like, but talking to that's
Corey Frank (16:48):
Interesting
Chris Beall (16:49):
Light or something. If marketing can't include talking to people nowadays,
Corey Frank (16:55):
It's like bottled water. Hey, we're out of water, we're out of bottled water. We're going to die of thirst. Well, what about this little thing called the tap? I tell my kids all the time. It's like, Hey, dad, the ro, and we're awa. It's Arizona. You got springs all over the place. So sometimes I suppose we're trying to overly complicate something where there's conversations all around, but what do you say to that rebuttal if you can't have enough conversations to make the math work? I think you and I would disagree on that, right? But is that where fundamentally the mindset is? Is that Chris? That's cute. You can talk with a couple people, but I'm talking about sending out mass emails and segmentation, and I do more before 7:00 AM than you do all day with a conversation.
Chris Beall (17:37):
Well, I would say that that level of confidence is not what I was seeing at the conference. It was more like this, which is really, that seems unlikely. And I sometimes have my phone with our current statistics just for the day. I could go look at it right now and probably find how many conversations did we connect yesterday? So we have this thing that's called daily dials, and  if I were to look at daily dials, here we go, daily dials, I can probably find some numbers. And this is one of the things that I tend to do is just look at the numbers every morning when I get up. Actually, I'm kind of lazy, so I lie in bed and I reach over for my phone, and here I am looking at the Daily Dials report, and it said that ConnectAndSell customers had 19,352 conversations yesterday.
(18:35):
Not over some vague period of time, but literally yesterday. And out of those, say that they only set 1,679 meetings, and one of our customers sets lots of meetings. They set 983 with just one of their groups. Really, really kind of a good brand. So if I bring this up and I go, well see here, there's this group of folks and it's 242 companies, and they had 19,352 targeted conversations. It's like, yeah, that's them, but not everybody can afford that. And I'm thinking, well, wait. So I talked to somebody who does advertising, saying we wanted to send an ad or have an ad associated with all the online activity, the phone, particularly activity of everybody we talked to. So that'd be 19,432 people a day of everybody our customers talk to. Is that doable? Oh, yeah. And how would that work? Well, it costs you $20,000 a year minimum.
(19:32):
You have to sign up, you have to commit. It's like, well, why? Well, I mean, for $20,000, you'd have a lot of conversations. Yeah. Well, it's just like, it's almost like I'm trying to come up with a good analogy. I love your bottled water analogy.
#8: EP213: Ethical AI Selling - Reality vs Hype
Certainly with your round table that you've talked with a lot of CEOs like Chris, but that authenticity, whereas as humans, we perceive those little subtleties and mood and those complex needs through a simple conversation. And when a tell happens from an ai, either Chris, to your point from a text or a bot, how do you combat that? Is that the racist to get as authentic as possible or because that's where I think the Delta ethics happened. Chris is, wait a minute, I thought you were a real person, but now you're a machine. So Shane, what do you think about that and bridging that gap?
Shane Mahi (00:23:29):
So Chris mentioned it yesterday and it drove a lot of the discussion, which was it's the ability to tell the truth and just being truthful about anything upfront. And I used it when I started, and it comes from the 27 seconds, is the point of inoculation. And it's stating a fact before somebody has that objection. And if you are using any type of artificial intelligence, computer robot, I think the most authentic, genuine thing to do is to tell the truth. And that comes from, Hey, this is a robot, Corey, I'd like to have a conversation with you. If not, would you like to be speaking to a human? You'll then say, sure. The robot then has the advantage of saying, Hey, Corey, it's going to take about five to six minutes to patch you through. I can probably get your questions covered in the next 45 seconds.
(00:24:18):
Do you want to have a chat with me or do you want to have a chat with the next person? And for me, that makes all the difference because time for a ceo, for a business professional is absolutely everything. And the ability to cut out that wasted time is everything. I'll give you a quick example. I called, I mentioned it yesterday, right, Chris? I called Pizza Hut the other day and it took me six minutes to remove onions from my pizza because the guy kept battling from me that I said, you can't just pick the goddamn onions off the pizza. I don't like onions. And it was a nightmare. Now, had a bot just been able to say, Hey, which toppings would you like to add or remove if any? Just remove onions. My pizza's at the door in 10, 15 minutes. And for me, again, the truth allows that time to be shortened, which gives you more opportunity to take care of other things that are most important in your life.
(00:25:13):
And another thing that I think is really important, I just watched it the other day, and that point you made on authenticity and being genuine and the truth. Mackinac, I'm sure you both have seen that. I had no idea. I think Sam Altman is an ex Mackinac that's swear God, because when that person, the robot locked the door, obviously it's playing with the guy. I'm a sucker for women, absolute sucker for women. So if I was in one of those situations and they were manipulating me without knowing it and putting the love spot, well, were you really interested in me? He's lying to you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, to get out. That is where everything changes for me. And now after seeing that movie, I'm wondering, Chris is very smart, Cora, you are very smart. Are you going to start peeling off your skin one day and saying the same thing to me?
Corey Frank (00:26:11):
Well, but I think that's part of it. It's a brilliant point. I love the trust thing
#7: EP208: Balancing Relationships and Efficiency in AI Sales
(8) If there's skepticism or resistance from sales teams or clients towards AI tools like ChatGPT, how do you recommend addressing these concerns?
Well, a couple of different ways. There will always be skepticism about new technology. There should be. New technology means new, it's unproven. We're not sure what it does. Really, really cool technology that makes you think something that's not actually true. Like, hey, ChatGPT is a person who's talking to me. That's not actually true. Hey, ChatGPT is thinking about this. That's not actually true. It's the next engine. It knows a lot of stuff that it's read so to speak, and it knows how to spit out the next token, think token word, very similar concepts. And so when ChatGPT is talking to us so to speak, it's really just going next, next, next. Now maybe our minds work like this too, and our voices work like this. 
Chris Beall (18:52):
I have a feeling we do a lot of next, next, next, ourselves. It's just the way the world is. We love to think that we're really brilliant, having deep, deep thoughts and all that. Probably not. We're probably just spitting out the next word that comes to mind. That's why we call it. And so its natural skepticism is natural. The way skepticism is overcome is through two things. One is transparency, it let's be open about things. And the other is track record. So if the track record is good, and we note that over time some particular function, and I'll go back to those conversations where you take a discovery meeting, and the AI compresses it down to 10 points. Well, the first time I read one I might think maybe it's missing some things. By the time I've read a hundred of them, which only takes me a hundred minutes that I might've spread over a couple of weeks, I'm starting to go, Hey, I think this is pretty good. 
Chris Beall (19:47):
I don't have any big misses yet. But it just takes time. It takes time, and it takes experience. This is why the most skeptical people who are really, really smart plunge in and start experiencing what I call in anger or with an intent for a meaningful outcome, a new technology that is clearly as powerful as ChatGPT and all the things that are like it. So if you haven't gotten in there and put your hands on it, so to speak, and made some mistakes, try writing some prompts and seeing what happens. Don't just do the same thing over and over. Your skepticism only will go away appropriately and correctly with experience that leads to a track record because now you kind of know where the landmines are. 
How about question number nine, future trends. 
#6: EP209: Your Only Product Is the Meeting
(Not this one - it's another short compilation episode)
#5: EP214: The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity
We picked the most lovely industry to go into, and that's telemarketing and cold prospecting. And what was it? And the only reason that I was able to get to the truth faster was because read about Daniel Disney when the pandemic hit found, cog found ConnectAndSell, bought Cog, bought ConnectAndSell, spoke with Gerry, did Flight Scool, had seven meetings in six hours, and that's where it started. It was the ability to have your script, be honest, open, and just get into those conversations. And by doing that fast, quickly, efficiently, and at scale, we were able to progress our business much faster, I think, than a lot of people. We actually had 444% growth from year one to year two from using ConnectAndSell and implementing a system called the Entrepreneurial Operating System™ by Gino Wickman.
(00:35:15):
Now the authenticity of our brand, and even what is happening right now, came from all of the mistakes we made. And those are typically our storytelling, selling mechanisms, the mistakes we made and the path we took got us to a place where we made all those mistakes, learned everything, and served customers. I obviously lost my business because of some bad decisions I had to let go of my business, A lot of bad decisions. But I've recreated my business. That took me three years in three months with the use of ChatGPT. And why is it because I prompted all of my problems, all of my stakes helped me build a business plan that bypasses these mistakes and gives me the outcomes I'm looking for in half the time. And in that now, my marketing, my messaging, emails, prospecting, research, everything that, again, like you said, rightfully so, anything in the future is anxiety.
(00:36:12):
Anything in the past is regret. The only thing that matters is right, right now. And what's happening right, right now is yes, you better get on board because AI is happening. As much as you are worried about what can happen 5, 10, 15 years in the future, that shit is going to happen whether you like it or not. So it's either get ahead of the curve or get with the curve, or you are going to be that. They're just bums, bums who want to stay behind and complain and say, this is going to ruin me. This is going to take my job. Get with the program, dude, get with the program. Start using it. I was a novice, an absolute novice using ChatGPT when it first came out. The only thing that drew my attention was a hundred million users in one week for that alone. I was like, all right, let me see what this is about. I'm a novice still to this day, but the amount of times I've set up till three in the morning, six, seven hours, prompting, prompting, prompting to the point, the only reason I went to bed is because it said, you've maxed out your attempts. You can't use us anymore.
Corey Frank (00:37:13):
You finished the internet, you exhausted ChatGPT. 
Shane Mahi (00:37:18):
That’s right, and that happened multiple times. And my knowledge comes, which is why I believe podcasts, even to the education of AI and ethics and sales and marketing, everything behind it has come from listening and watching podcasts. That's the only reason I was able to learn.
#4: EP212: Reps Dread It, Managers Avoid It: Coaching
CLIP 1:
So that's really key to getting coaching to work. The coaching has got to be immediate. Most coaching is way, way, way, way too late. Coaching somebody on Friday I about a performance they had on Monday, don't bother. It's just not going to get anything done. This is where I think managers often confuse what I'll call deal work with coaching. They think that they're coaching, they're actually talking through how a deal might go, what some tactics and techniques might be, and they get an agreement from the rep to do something better, different whatever in the next interaction that they have with the prospect. And that feels like coaching, that's more like advising and it's nice and it's important unless it's just war stories. But coaching is really to improve performance and you need to have the performance and the coaching and the performance and the coaching be very close to each other in time. 
Chris Beall (16:28):
Minutes are okay, not very many minutes, hours are too long and a week may as well be forever.
CLIP 2:
got to have a chance of listening for the same thing over and over. So it's really, really important to do it. But most of what's called coaching isn't really coaching, it's kind of advising it's too far after the fact. 
So if you can figure out ways, be listening behind the scenes, coming in and whispering to somebody immediately after a conversation and helping them perform that little bit better on first failure, you'll find over time that and fairly short amount of time that what you're hoping for in the bottom line, which is conversion rates, small number of conversations, leads to a bigger number of meetings, and a larger number of meetings are being set per rep hour, which is the key number. You'll find that stuff improves on its own. So start from the beginning, you'll get to the end. Eventually, you'll get some great results
#3: EP211: Conversations Convert to Pipeline Power
Because let me tell you, if you think you know, you're fooling yourself, you're fooling yourself. If you aren't getting feedback from the market through conversations at a short enough cycle time and a high enough frequency, you're just guessing and your problem is competitively, somebody else might choose not to guess. And I think Helen's going to help her clients choose not to guess. 
Corey Frank (08:33):
And so with that, the helping knuckleheads like me choose not to guess. Where do you start, Helen, right? I'm a small mid-size VP of sales. I have a decent patient board. I have a SaaS software product. I got some funding. I think I'm doing everything right. I have enough people, I get more people as soon as I start proving myself and go to the board. So I think I'm doing okay, but where would I start with something like this? With people's power? 
Helen Fanucci (09:05):
I would start by looking at the data that you currently have in your CRM system or whatever your system of record is to find out one, where you're winning, who you're winning with, what types of people are making the buying decisions as a business. You may or may not already know. That depends on how you have been crawling through your own data. So I'd start there to look at the current state and try to draw some conclusions or at least illuminate where resources are aligned and are they aligned to where you're currently winning or are they misaligned? So I would start looking at the current state to build a hypothesis of what you could do more of to accelerate your revenue, and it might be repositioning some resources to an industry that you're doing well at or trying to then going to find people. Let's say you have some folks that make the decision, so you have some champions or economic buyers, what do they have in common across each other? 
Helen Fanucci (10:24):
And I don't just mean job titles, but the characteristics. You can look on LinkedIn and see what the characteristics of those and then go find some more like that within a defined addressable market or where you think you want to go. I think some of those things are places to start. This begins to get the closed loop feedback here. You have data, you have some results and dispositions from your go-to market, even if it's closed loss or not now, not interested, what have you. So trying to apply current data to then make some recommendations of how to move forward. The other thing too is what information do you have or that you capture that's proprietary to you? Because they can't build a defendable market dominance position on publicly available information. So what is it that you're collecting or that's proprietary and how do you get more of that that's relevant to your business? And I don't know if that's something in my experience anyway, that's not really a deliberate thing that people put. Time sort of happens and some people have more insights into their customer set, but doing that in an organized fashion to build up insights that your competitors don't have, or at least that's proprietary to you, makes a lot of sense and differentiating yourself and defending your position in the market. 
#2: EP210: Sales Targeting Beyond LinkedIn and Navigator
Helen Fanucci (22:01):
One of the things that was interesting is this idea of territory assignments, and we have a rep that has a locked in territory and people, I guess feel a comfort zone with that versus well, okay, here you have maybe 10 accounts, but all the other unnamed accounts are fair game and they go to whoever gets a meeting in those accounts. It's so interesting to see how anxious or irritated people are by having an open territory concept. It's like everyone wants to have their patch defined, locked down so they can pursue it as they wish. So is that going smaller and smaller? It probably is, and it was just fascinating to me to observe the dynamics around that and the discomfort with having all these accounts that were fair game for anyone to go after. I wonder if you have seen that much in what your thoughts are about that, but when you talked about the shrinking world or shrinking view, that's kind of what I was thinking about is, yeah, you can zero in, but then you lose sight of what's possible where you're not looking. 
Corey Frank (23:21):
Yeah, it's funny. I think it's probably the same reason why a lot of sales reps have the security of a bloated pipeline. They can't disqualify folks in this particular quarter. Hope Springs eternal that this person will always close for this angst, this fear that if I keep sending them touch base emails, not picking up a call and having a conversation, not promoting something new, that I'm seeing what's happening in the world from 40,000 feet that's relevant or German to them. But if I simply do touch base emails, which is the equivalent of did you decide on choosing me and giving me your money yet? Or is there a better option that's out there? But that's why pipelines remain large. I can see that there is certainly from the team that all three of us collectively and Broaden knows we're a sales organization. The bigger, the more states I have, and Chris, you and I have talked about this when it comes to people too, if you're a sales manager, the more people I have under my purview, under my fiefdom, certainly the more prominent I am, I guess the more secure I feel. You probably saw this a lot at some of the larger companies you were with Helen, right? Is how many headcounts are under your particular p and l, and that somehow is a status thing. 
Helen Fanucci (24:33):
Well, it's power. You have more resources as a sales leader. You don't have a budgeta compared to headcount. So headcount is more resources. It is a version of power to be able to get bigger revenue, bigger quotas, because headcount always comes with bigger quotas. The more headcount, the more quota. So if you're willing to take that on, great. Why not?
#1: EP145: Building Trust Must Always Be Step One
(not this one - this was a small topic compilation episode that continues to be their top episode for over a year!)

In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank are joined by special guest Griffin McGowan, a recent college graduate navigating the world of sales job hunting. The trio delves into the challenges and opportunities faced by young professionals seeking to launch their sales careers, with a particular focus on the crucial role of mentorship. Griffin shares his experiences interviewing with various companies and the valuable lessons he's learned, while Chris and Corey offer insights on what employers look for in new hires and the skills needed to succeed. The conversation also explores the idea that interviewees are not just looking for a job, but are essentially "hiring" a boss or mentor to guide them through their professional journey. Packed with wisdom gained from years of experience, this episode is a must-listen for recent grads, mentors, and interviewers alike. Join them for this episode, "New Grads: You're the Product, Choose Your Buyer."
 
Links from this episode:
Griffin McGowan on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedInBranch49Chris Beall on LinkedInConnectAndSell
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
Corey Frank (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank from Branch 49. And as always, the sage of sales, the profit of profit, the Hawking of Hawking, the CEO of ConnectAndSell Chris Beal. Good afternoon, Chris, how are you? 
 Chris Beall (00:16):
Hey, I just finished watching Oppenheimer. So that Hawking of Hawking thing goes pretty deep right now. I'm into physics. 
Corey Frank (00:23):
Really? Okay, we'll have to think of one that rhymes my alliteration for o the [00:00:30] blank of Oppenheimer of, I don't know, origination. How about that? Sales origination. So Chris, we have a special guest. I think this is a first for us in our 230, 40 episodes plus of the market dominance guys, because we talk about at Branch 49 and certainly a ConnectAndSell is what you've helped us build. Here is the term uco, which is a finishing school for future CEOs. And today we have Griffin McGowan, [00:01:00] who is a future CEOI think from all senses and from what we know about No pressure Griffin, but we want to track your progress on LinkedIn here over the years. And Chris, you have an interesting story about how Griffin, and then we want to hear from Griffin about what stage in this finishing school are you at and what is this concept of [00:01:30] a finishing school and what are the pieces that maybe are missing or that Chris and I certainly can help contribute to newer folks who are entering in a profession. So welcome Griffin and Chris. How do we know Griffin and why is he in a hot seat here at the Dominus guys market? 
 Chris Beall (01:48):
Well, the short version of the story is I got fired. I can't remember what day it was probably Christmas Eve or something like that from AP Par when they decided to sell the company. And [00:02:00] I said, we don't need a senior vice president of product innovation anymore. Who does need one of those anyway, when you really think about it. But I had the job and so I was flying back from the east coast where I used to commute back and forth between here and the West coast and there. And I was sitting next to somebody that I just hit it off with and we had this great conversation for the six hours it takes to fly into the wind from one coast to another. And that was Brian McGowan, Griffin's dad. [00:02:30] And we talked about venture capital and we talked about building businesses, we talked about all manner of things you can talk about a lot in six hours. 
 Chris Beall (02:37):
And so, okay, that was fine. And we did some things later. Brian helped us out at ConnectAndSell in the commercial real estate arena. Got us a great meeting with JLL. I learned that commercial real estate as a world, whether you just don't care about their salespeople and so they'd hardly want to help them with something like ConnectAndSell. But it was fascinating and we had a thesis and we ran at it and had a great time. [00:03:00] And then a couple of years ago, Griffin, you can tell the story. Did you reach out to me? It had to be your dad basically saying, look, I don't know very many good people in business, but I know this guy is semi okay but better than nothing. So why don't you chat with them or something like that. 
Griffin McGowan (03:20):
Yeah, definitely. So it was my junior year of college I was planning on doing an internship at a big company, but right after hopping out of Covid, a lot of the internships [00:03:30] I was looking at were online internships, remote, and didn't believe I'd really get that great experience doing an online remote interview would be better to be in person in the office. So my dad thought of the idea, why don't I put you through my own little just background of meeting with a bunch of people, understanding how business works, getting that little internship feeling. And one of the things he specifically focused on was [00:04:00] reaching out to his network. That's huge. So that summer I spent probably two or three months talking to a hundred ish people like-minded individuals like yourself from CEOs, the CTOs to people just getting into the business world, just trying to understand and pick their rein a little bit, learn their background, get some recommendations. I wasn't sure where I was going with my career yet. Was looking in finance, was looking in real estate, and was looking in investment banking. So it was [00:04:30] just trying to put together the pieces before graduation. And I know we got the chance to talk, you recommended some great books. I went through your background about getting into sales and now that I've graduated last May, I've chosen the path of going into sales, understanding business, understanding the sales cycle. So that's where I ended up. 
Corey Frank (04:51):
And you went to a great school at University of Alabama, right? In business school? Yes. 
Griffin McGowan (04:55):
I graduated from the CulverHouse College of Business there. Big school, big football [00:05:00] program. So it was awesome going there. 
Corey Frank (05:02):
Sure, sure. Well this will be good for Chris, for you and I because you got have great pedigree, you have great raw material and moving into sales, what Chris and I want to do is help understand what needs to be thrown out and what needs to be added to this arsenal of wisdom and knowledge and skills for the next couple of years or so as you establish yourself [00:05:30] in sales. So does that sound okay, Chris? I think that'd be fun to explore this with Griffin. 
 Chris Beall (05:38):
Sounds outstanding. And by the way, Griffin, I didn't know you'd talked to so many people. I have to say I don't know another person who has executed a summer program that's got that kind of, I don't know, range SPECT depth. I mean that's a lot of conversations to ConnectAndSell. Our motto is that conversations matter. You went out and got [00:06:00] 'em that alone. I mean, who needs to interview you, right? I'd be done. It's like, okay, well whatever that is, go do more of that, but do it on my team. I may actually poke you away from whatever it is that you're going to be doing, but you probably want to work for a better company than ours. So 
Griffin McGowan (06:19):
Yeah, my dad always kind of worded around the bigger the network you have, the more opportunities you have. He's been my mentor through this whole process. So getting out [00:06:30] and talking to as many people made me more comfortable having conversations, even like this one, understanding background, picking up on some terms. So it's just overall increased my education. 
Corey Frank (06:43):
Well, the great Harvey McKay has, he's always asked what is the one piece of advice as a new grad entry into sales or even any profession is the key to his success that he would empower on folks is your net work [00:07:00] is your net worth and the more you can focus on your net, the more that your net worth will be year after year. And I thought that's a great piece of advice that he's preached for many, many years. So let's start Griffin with, I'm curious at the University of Alabama in the college of business, was there a culture, was there a mentorship [00:07:30] or an urging to move into the sales arena at a major university like this coming out of the college of business? Or was it business writ large as this behemoth, this nondescript entity of commerce in general? 
Griffin McGowan (07:46):
So I would say it was business as a whole, depending on where you wanted to take that you can take certain classes that lean more towards others. At the time I was really undecided, so I wasn't sure of the path I was going to take. I have friends and even colleagues now that kind of chose [00:08:00] more of the path going into real estate, going into finance, going directly into sales. So there's so many classes that offer it. Even picking a nice minor, you can really dive down into it deep a little bit more. The mentorship was great though. The teachers were great. All the classes were perfect. At the time I went, the more broader route with the major was just trying to figure out the path I wanted to take. 
Corey Frank (08:23):
Sure. No, I understand that. But it's something that I think that Chris and I have seen and we've talked about a few times in [00:08:30] our personal conversations over the years is that business has nothing to do with sales. Of course it has everything to do with sales, but somehow most of these patriot universities will give you the imprimatur, the certificate, the diploma, the degree and say, okay, go forth, young traveler into the world with this business degree. But somehow that [00:09:00] this concept, this science of sales is something that is picked up on the street. It's picked up on Instagram and 62nd first necessarily from the market dominance guys, right. Chris, wouldn't you say? 
 Chris Beall (09:17):
Yeah. Well it's really interesting. I mean I've been working on occasion, been privileged to get to do some stuff with Dr. Howard Dover at a University of Texas Dallas, who runs one of the greatest sales programs, [00:09:30] maybe the greatest university level sales program in the world. It's truly about sales and they learn theory, they learn practice, they learn from really solid folks who know what they're talking about. They learn from yahoos like me and it's very sales-focused, which is interesting and unusual. I do think, and again, I never went to business school, physics was hard enough for me, business would've been completely [00:10:00] overwhelming, but I don't have any experience with it directly as a student. But my impression has been business schools will nibble around the edge of sales, but they won't hit it head on as a true discipline that you can learn deeply and that is hyper important. 
 Chris Beall (10:18):
Your entire career is going to depend on it. And yet when you go to the other end of the spectrum and you say, okay, let's talk to a bunch of CEOs, one, they almost all came up through sales. It's [00:10:30] unusual otherwise. And two, they have sales chops, they can hold a conversation with a stranger. I'll go back to meeting Griffin's dad. So you get two guys like us sitting on an airplane for six hours, well, you're going to have a conversation and it's going to be a comfortable conversation. It's going to be far reaching. It had a lot of personal elements to it actually. That's one of the things that you learn I think when you're moving in business, moving [00:11:00] up, moving out and around is it's okay to be a person, but you don't have to be some sort of a statue or something, but you can be yourself and that's going to be helpful. 
 Chris Beall (11:11):
That's actually going to be part of the thing that you're doing. So I think it's all quiet, it's fascinating. I think sales is starting to make its way into business schools formally, but it's still considered to be more of an art that's picked up in the rough and tumble than a science [00:11:30] that you can learn. You could learn finance and modeling and stuff like that, I guess is what I would call it. So to me, I've gotten an opportunity to talk to a lot of young people about their careers and older people about their careers. And I always say the same thing, which is that in business you're responsible for helping folks get to a point where they can accept your help. That turns out to be a big part of business because everybody's busy [00:12:00] and everybody's busy doing whatever they're doing. And if you can be helpful, you have to break through that somehow. It's change management where it's not your organization, it's somebody else's. And the number one thing you need is you need to be respected. And in the world of business, if you've never sold anything, it's hard to get a lot of respect. 
Corey Frank (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, and the art of getting to the point where you've sold something, [00:12:30] we see this a lot, Chris, right? That people wander like a ship without a rudder from sales gig to sales gig to sales gig. It takes three, four sales gigs where they maybe have six months, 18 months in or before they settle or they find the one that they're now going to spend the next 3, 4, 5 years in. And it's as if they're looking for something and then they settle for something [00:13:00] or it's that, Hey, I wasn't successful at the sales gig because my manager, the leads, the market, the comp plan, the commute, what have you. And they do that a couple of times until they realize, wait a minute, I think that I've realized what the problem is and it's the person in the mirror and I better plant my feet. 
Corey Frank (13:19):
And so what a lot of great sales, mentors, sales skills are out there on the market today. If there's one thing over the last 15, [00:13:30] 20 years, Chris, it's that there is no excuse for a new grad not to have education in this profession without spending the thousands of dollars that you would have to do for a sales certification for the price of a couple of overdue charges at your local library or for a YouTube subscription, which is free. You should have no problem imparting some of the basics. So let's get into it. Griffin. So [00:14:00] you just interviewed with a number of companies, but particularly some of the interviews that you had just recently, I think Chris and I and the audience are curious of what are the type of questions for a sales role that the sales folks, leadership execs, peers, et cetera, we're asking somebody with you, with your qualifications to find out if there's a real snug fit in their organization. 
Griffin McGowan (14:27):
So definitely, yeah. The first question of course they're [00:14:30] going to ask is why sales? They want you to be able to understand that question and be able to express that question in a way that shows why you're interested in it. Of course, they want to hire somebody that's hungry for sales. And then that correlates into other questions about what skills do you possess that are like skills and then going into other questions about tough situations if you've dealt with in the past, either if it's a smaller job or working as a professional job, just trying to pick your brain a little bit, ask [00:15:00] you those tough confusing questions and then really see if you're able to bring up experiences and if you're able to sell yourself, I would say 
Corey Frank (15:13):
Anything surprising about some of the interview questions that you've been asked, 
Griffin McGowan (15:17):
I would say some companies that I've interviewed at some of the questions are a little, I would say overcoming a tough situation. Some of the questions don't correlate directly with sales. I [00:15:30] would say some of the questions are a little too out of the ballpark sometimes. I've had weird questions when it comes to tell us a time that you were last stressed out at work, which I understand how that would correlate to sales, but it's more of one of those questions that I believe it's if you search up the list of 25 basic interview questions, it aligns in that way. 
Corey Frank (15:54):
Well, that's interesting. Let me ask you, and Chris can chime in on [00:16:00] this, but from your perspective, Griffin, from this hunt, this searcher on to find the next gig in the profession of sales, do you think that it is more nature or more nurture to succeed in the profession? And what do you think of the folks who are interviewing you at these larger companies, what do you think they think the answer to that is? And I'd love Chris's opinion on this as well. 
Griffin McGowan (16:30):
[00:16:30] I would say it's both in the middle of that nature nurture. I think you really have to be driving and outgoing when it comes to it. And I would say the most difficult part about interviewing for a sales job is since Covid, we've noticed that the interview process has turned into online interviews not as much being held in person. And I think it's difficult to be able to sell yourself through a Zoom call and especially go through all these interview processes. It just doesn't work as well. I think more in person is where [00:17:00] it aligns. 
 Chris Beall (17:03):
Well, I'll jump on that. I mean this whole zoom thing has been fascinating to me. For one thing, we've been running this company remotely since 2014, so we got pretty used to not being together because I couldn't, I wanted top talent and I didn't want to pay for two floors of an office building that was a long commute to get there and kept the top talent far away where I [00:17:30] could get 'em anywhere. What I learned through that process is it's possible to be very human and very open and vulnerable and to have fun with people, whether you're in person or whether you're on a zoom, but you're going to have to bring it. It's you who has to bring that, we'll call it the softness, a willingness to have fun with people even though you're a [00:18:00] long distance away and you don't get to sit down right with them. 
 Chris Beall (18:02):
And in a way it's almost easier. But you've with that attitude and as Corey, my approach to talking to people is just to talk to 'em and see what happens. One of the things that I posted about this yesterday, I think one of the things I think is weird about sales and weird about a lot of business is there's this idea that we should know the outcome of the conversation before we start the conversation. That is the purpose of the conversation [00:18:30] is for me to get what I want. You decide to sign the contract or whatever it happens to be. That's the hopefully foregone conclusion. And yet the beauty of conversations is they always offer an opportunity to discover something that's completely unexpected and that's where new value shows up. So I'm wondering, Griffin, did you feel like in any of these interviews that anybody was trying to let the completely unexpected come out of your mouth? 
 Chris Beall (19:00):
[00:19:00] Or did you feel like there's going, okay, one from column A, one from column B, which was it, and then they're going to go talk about you among themselves and say, well, this area was like this and this area is like this. Whereas you could imagine folks talking about something and going, oh my God, that guy was just like it was to be in the same room with them and there's going to be a lot of sales on Zoom. We better pick this guy up. So what did you feel like? Were they checking boxes or were they having [00:19:30] fun? 
Griffin McGowan (19:31):
I would say it's a lot of checking boxes of what I've noticed that you can tell the questions that they're asking. You can see them staring to the screen next to them and you can hear them on the keyboard or writing on the side, taking notes. I would say a lot of the interviews are structured like that. They're given a set of questions to ask, seeing how you respond to them and then formulating and talking to the team after to come up with more of a conclusion. I would say only some of the interviews I'd have that I've seen more really [00:20:00] just trying to understand you as a person by just having natural conversation with you. Some of it seems just very robotic. 
 Chris Beall (20:08):
Fascinating. 
Corey Frank (20:10):
Have you been, again, without naming certainly any of these names, but when you've interviewed at some of these larger organizations, have you sat in awe of the person who is interviewing you and thought, my gosh, this is a scientist, [00:20:30] this is a master craftsman, this is somebody who I want to emulate, epitomize rise to that level from how they handle themselves and the charisma, how they light up a room, albeit virtually how they have the master of the art of the conversation? Or has it been candidly, maybe fairly underwhelming when you think of these large organizations should have the best rock stars on planet earth? 
Griffin McGowan (21:00):
[00:21:00] I think it's a mixed batch of both. I've applied for smaller companies and soft and tech. We're all the way up to bigger companies and it depends who you talk to. There's definitely been people that I've talked to that I've been blown away by wanting to work right under them, even viewing them as a mentor, even just having a 20 minute conversation with them. And then other account executives I've talked to that just sound robotic that you wouldn't even think they were in sales in the first place. So it's bouncing around. Within those interviews, [00:21:30] you'll talk to somebody that's a rockstar, then you'll talk to somebody that was just trying to get through the interview, hit all the boxes and just do their job. 
Corey Frank (21:39):
Well, first of all, love to hear that. I think that's one of the pieces that I think that I've learned from Chris over these 20 plus years of knowing him and as a mentor. And one of the pieces of advice that I received early on is you choose your boss, you're hiring for a boss and [00:22:00] a mentor as much as you're hiring for the job and whether it's a small organization, but somebody who's a dynamic esteemed craftsman, I would take that even at less pay than going for the resume builder, which I think would be the traditional VC funded company, Chris, right? With the fast track and the folks who are going through the robotic mentor, and sometimes we chase the vanity metrics of what shows on our LinkedIn or our resume [00:22:30] versus really what's going to do the best work to build our network down the road. Chris, any thoughts on that? Well, 
 Chris Beall (22:38):
To me it's the whole game. I mean, the fact of the matter is there are some people that are just dynamite to work with where the freedom that you have to bring your best out to explore well so you're going to be held to a high doing standard. That's a good thing. And my standard, which is if you're joining in order [00:23:00] to advance your career, I'm going to fire you immediately anyway. So that's not going to work out. We're going to actually accomplish something together and it better be something almost everybody would fail at, and that's the fun of it. If that's fun for you, then let's go do that thing. If it's not, then it's probably going to be worse than you think. So the question of what are you getting? I mean, you're actually buying something when you take a job with somebody, you're buying that boss. 
 Chris Beall (23:30):
[00:23:30] That's what you're buying. What are you buying them with? You're buying them with a chunk of your career with time and time you can't get back. So it's a very important purchase that you're making. And I think a lot of people don't realize that when you are looking around for companies to join up with and people to work with, you're the buyer. They think that they're the buyer. Trust me, it's like when you're raising venture capital, you are the product. [00:24:00] They don't have the product. All they have is money and time. It's not that interesting, but you're the product, you're the differentiated offering. That's why they have to talk to so many and you may have to talk to a lot of them. They got to talk to more of you. So I think it's the same kind of dynamic that, and I think it's when times are tough for getting certain kinds of jobs. 
 Chris Beall (24:20):
And Griffin, you mentioned before we started, this is not the easiest time in the history of life to get a sales job. A lot of people are going, Hey, give me somebody with the big Rolodex [00:24:30] or give me somebody who's got the depth of my industry or whatever it is that they've got going on and they've been doing cuts. And so especially in the SDR kind of end of things, which has become the traditional entry point, teams have gotten smaller. I don't know if the standards have gotten higher, they should, but the number of opportunities and the flow rate has gone down a little bit. But I think the most important thing for anybody to remember is that you're purchasing that boss. Now, one of the [00:25:00] challenges I've always had with big companies and why I haven't worked for a lot of them is you don't know what's going to happen to your boss. 
 Chris Beall (25:08):
Your boss is going to get reorged to some other part of the world. My wife Helen had a deal at Microsoft where she ended up with a switch out of bosses and it just became untenable. And then she managed to get back to the previous boss and then they reorged around something completely new, which is all this AI stuff. And [00:25:30] here she is now starting her own company. But when you think about it, that's what you're buying. You are purchasing a boss and you're purchasing them for as long as you want to get 'em, which we don't know how long that is, and it's probably the most important purchase you ever make. People talk about a house as nothing compared to a boss. 
Corey Frank (25:52):
Yeah, for sure. For sure. So with that Griffin, what would you [00:26:00] describe, maybe speaking personally, but also from maybe some of the peers that you graduated school with? What are folks at the stage of your career? What are you looking for in a boss? 
Griffin McGowan (26:13):
You're just looking for somebody that can give you a lot of guidance that can really help support your career. Talking to other people, I've noticed that some of my peers are looking for a job with high income where they can make money straight out of school. Some are looking for just that great entry level job that can [00:26:30] really position and set them up for a great opportunity into the future. Personally for me, I'm just looking to work around smart people, work at a great company, have a mentor, and of course at the end of the day, make money work somewhere with an uncapped commission where the sky's the limit of how I can earn money. 
 Chris Beall (26:51):
Uncapped commission see right there. That's a good answer to a good thing to say in any sort of interview situation around [00:27:00] sales, it's like, if the product's great enough and the opportunity is big enough, I work just for commission. You ever want to get a sales job, just go ahead and say that. I would go ahead and I would just work for straight commissioning and go, oh, I respect you already. I used to work as a fuller brush man in Phoenix in the summer. I was desperate to do something. I needed to make some money [00:27:30] within a week or two, and I found myself with my first all commission job. And it was so interesting because it's like so many things in life. Until you step across that threshold, you really don't know what that feels like and what it feels like is going to determine what you act like. So that was a great answer right there. Absolutely. 
Corey Frank (27:51):
It wasn't a 
 Chris Beall (27:51):
Interview question was just a great 
Corey Frank (27:56):
Right. Well, let's keep that vein going for another question [00:28:00] or two here. Griffin, what would you describe, let's say you were having a chat with my good friend Chris and myself here, and we were two sales leaders, and we asked you what's the strongest part of your sales process, this arsenal you bring to our organization? You're attracted by the mentorship and the untapped commission, maybe based off of the recent grad. A lot of folks are interested in the flexibility [00:28:30] and when the balance, et cetera, which are admirable things. But when you look at your sales arsenal of the things you need to succeed to tap into that on a commission, what would you say Griffin says is the strongest part of your sales process? What do you do really well? 
Griffin McGowan (28:47):
Yeah, I would say to reiterate, just working in a strong company where the onboarding is great. I've noticed interviewing with some companies, and I've had some offers sent out that there really isn't an onboarding process. [00:29:00] They just hold you to that, call 300 people a day, call 400 people a day, and that's all they really give you. They just give you a script and just with small stuff like that, they're just going to work you to death at that point. They don't really care on your professional development. They're just using you as another person in the door, another person to be on the phone just to call, call and just bleed you dry. 
Corey Frank (29:25):
Well, let's drill down into your specific skill set. If we were to [00:29:30] rank 23 and Me to do a stress test on your sales skills that you have as a recent grad, what are you better at than others? What's the strongest part of your Griffin McGowan skillset? 
Griffin McGowan (29:46):
I would say the big thing I've been focusing on is empathy and active listening, bringing that into sales, having empathy, being able to connect with the prospect that you're talking to, and then also being able to listen, understand their problem, [00:30:00] keep your mouth quiet, let some silences go out, but to let them overall talk because if you're going to be on the call with a prospect and you're dominating the call the whole time and not letting them speak and express things, you're not going to progress that any longer. Well, 
Corey Frank (30:17):
That's fascinating because that's what I've observed in this chat with you thus far. This 30 minutes that we spent is you are an active, engaged listener. You don't step on other people's lines. [00:30:30] And I think that's admirable to a large degree. I would push back just colloquially, just conversationally, that when you're engaged in a good debate, a good conversation, that there does need to be an element where there is some tension. Because if there's too much active listening where there's a pause and [00:31:00] it's a question, answer question, answer question, answer, the status is diminished. The supplicative behavior, although not overt, is there. So I would just, Christian, I know Rich, what your thoughts are on that, but you're a phenomenal listener already. We can tell and just know you and meet you. But I think in the realm of sales, especially as a newer sales rep representing a product, and if you're talking to a seasoned executive [00:31:30] like Chris in a discovery call, there needs to be this authenticity in a conversation. And I think there does need to be a little bit of tension introduced with some control. But Chris, what are your thoughts on that? 
 Chris Beall (31:47):
Hey, when you're in sales, you're catching whales on a five pound test line. You got to know on the letter run and when to set the hook. I mean, it's a delicate business, there's no doubt about it. [00:32:00] It is a lot more, I don't know, it's doing something like figure skating or something like that. It doesn't look like a big difference to the layperson, whether you're landing on that inside edge of the outside edge. But one of them, you go down and the other one you look great and things happen and there is a lot of delicacy. And that balance between empathy, which you need. I mean, Griffin, you're dead, right? You need it, right? And then the thing [00:32:30] that you bring, so you have this baseline of, Hey, I can listen. I like to listen. I like to know what's going on with you. But you've got the question of, well, why are you talking to somebody in the first place? Unless there's some conflict between what they have and what they want? You wouldn't be having the conflict uncovering the world without pissing anybody off too much, which is pretty interesting. So I hope it won't piss anybody off here. Going back [00:33:00] to the beginning, I'm catching a ferry in 24 minutes. That is a 22 minute walk from here. Beautiful. 
 Chris Beall (33:07):
Beautiful. Yeah, it's going to be fun. I want to thank Griffin for coming on. I want to recommend to anybody that by the time you just drop by, which will be like two or three days from now, he'll already have 10 job offers. But if you want to get ahold of him and make him a job offer just based on this, which I think you should, I think he's easy to get ahold of, right? Griffin, how does somebody get a hold of you? 
Griffin McGowan (33:30):
[00:33:30] LinkedIn, best phone number. Email my LinkedIn's Griffin McGowan. Feel free to reach out there. My email's [email protected]. Those are the best ways to contact me. 
 Chris Beall (33:43):
Wasn't crazy enough to put a cell phone out there. Just anybody wants to know. My cell phone's (408) 203-4321. Sometimes I answer, sometimes I don't. But when I do, it's very interesting. 
Corey Frank (33:56):
That's right. Well, we look forward to following your journey [00:34:00] here, Griffin, here at the Market Dominance. Guys, we want to have you back and listen to your first weeks of onboarding and see how well you really tap into the untapped commission that you certainly will enjoy. So with that, with Griffin and for Chris Beal from the CEO of ConnectAndSell, this is Corey Frank from the Market. Ominous Guys. Until next time.

We're missing Corey Frank today, but we still have a meaty solo episode for you from Chris. Chris is diving into a perplexing sales practice - coaching cold calls. Perplexing because everyone talks coaching up, yet so few actually do it. He explains why this type of coaching is critical yet so scarce, why both the coach and the call induce fear, and how to actually make coaching work. With compelling examples from golf and hostage negotiations, Chris breaks down the elements of an effective coaching framework. The key - simplify each call into bite-sized pieces and target very specific first failures to drive rapid gains. This episode overflows with accessible coaching advice for sales leaders. Join us for this Market Dominance Guys Episode, “Reps Dread It, Managers Avoid It: Coaching.”
 
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
 
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:
"Comfort is always the enemy of performance." - Chris Beall
 
Others:
“Use recordings to model great calls, not critique.”
 
Here are 5 key points from the Chris Beall episode on coaching cold calls:
 
Coaching cold calls and unscheduled sales conversations is critical but rarely done effectively.
Recordings and delayed feedback don't work well for coaching short, high-pressure sales calls.
Fear of judgment from the manager and fear of rejection on the call inhibit performance during coaching.
Coach one specific first failure at a time, use repetition, and offer feedback immediately after the call.
Simplify calls into a repeatable framework focused on building trust, avoiding too much value too early, and closing for the next meeting.
 
Chris Beall (00:08):
Hey everybody. Chris Beal here with another episode of Market Dominance. Guys, I'm going solo today. Corey's tied up doing some kind of work that is probably super useful I'm sure, and I got a moment so I thought I'd do something fairly quick, but on a subject that's really been on my mind a lot recently, and that's coaching, and it's amazing to me but probably shouldn't be that there's so much talk about coaching in sales and there's so little actual coaching. So the question is why and is there something we can do about it or is this, there's something we should do about it First, I believe that at least for ambush calls for the cold call and the follow-up call that are unscheduled coaching is super important and super effective and the reason is that it's a short performance and the performance has got to be pretty precise to be effective, but it doesn't have to be perfect and we often fail fairly early in a cold call or fairly early in a follow-up call and when we do, we don't have a chance at what would come next. 
Chris Beall (01:18):
There's not a lot of recovery time because there's an inclination on the part of the person receiving the call to go ahead and say, Hey, great, thanks for calling me goodbye. And that's if they're being nice. So what to do about it? Well, one thing that's recommended and one thing that's done a lot is recordings. So you record so that you can have a recording for the coach to listen to. And self-coaching and self-coaching recordings can actually be reasonably effective as long as the person who's coaching themselves has got a framework, they have a way of looking at and thinking about the recording. And as long as they get over the hump with regard to listening to themselves, a lot of people are very, very uncomfortable listening to themselves on a recording. I know I used to be, maybe I still am for all I know. 
Chris Beall (02:10):
I used to make recorded videos back many, many years ago when I worked at Martin Marietta, now Lockheed Martin and I'd make a video every day and these were training videos in the world of software design and software development requirements, engineering subjects like that. And first few times I had to just look at that camera, how far away was it? I don't know, 16 inches, something like that, big studio camera and then even worse, spend the afternoon with my good friend Mr. Singer going through the material and editing it. And first I didn't have a very objective view because I was too concerned about that mismatch between what my voice sounds like to me inside, no echoing in my bony head and what it sounds like when it's recorded and coming back to me. So with recorded coaching, even self-coaching, it's rather challenging to get to the point where you're listening, I would say clearly. 
Chris Beall (03:11):
And you still have to have a framework that you're listening for and so it's hard using recordings to coach somebody else that's really commonly said that it's happening. It's really, really common. There are products out there whose purpose is entirely to help you coach your reps and what I tend to find is they don't get used very much and when they do, they tend to get used in a way that isn't very effective either. Some scores are put on them that says, you did this well at this, you did this well at that, kind of like grading a paper or something like that. Or they're used to point out multiple places that the rep could have improved. And while it sounds great, most of the time, one, it doesn't happen, it's just too much work. And two, the reps don't know how to really interpret those offline comments. 
Chris Beall (04:08):
Those comments that came from somebody listening to a recording and making their observations whether structured or unstructured. Meanwhile, there's an Allego study that says, and I think it's pretty accurate, that 54% of sales managers report that they provide an optimum amount of coaching, but only 37% of sales reps agree with their managers on that one. And 93% of sales managers report the coaching sessions they're providing are high quality. Only 68% of reps agree with that, and I guarantee you that's not for coaching. Ambush calls, cold calls and follow-ups. Now why am I so kind of focused on ambush calls? Because when we're out to dominate markets, we only have that first opportunity to make a good impression and that good impression means it's getting trust. So the whole concept of market dominance as we put it forth here on market dominance, guys, pretty simple pave the market with trust, harvest that trust over the next 12 quarters that it's going to take for the folks in your market overall, all of them to ultimately decide that they're going to replace their current solution with a new solution, which is when you have a shot. 
Chris Beall (05:24):
So you've got a lot of patience, you have a lot of persistence, you have a lot of structured follow-up management that needs to be done. And in addition, you have these very short conversations that require coaching and they tend to happen, especially now in a work from home world, they happen somewhere else where the manager no longer is. So the old idea of walking around and at least standing there and listening for somebody to get a connection with a target and talk to them, that doesn't happen as much anymore. You can't really 
Chris Beall (05:56):
Walk around your rep's living room, their office, or whatever at home or some Starbucks, god forbid, and listen for them. Also, if you're using conventional dialing technology like a telephone or a regular dialer, you're just not getting that many conversations. So if you're talking to say two people an hour, that's a long wait for the coach. So it's super inconvenient and expensive people like managers or coaches, if you have a specialized coach which are pretty rare, simply don't have the time to stand there and wait for a conversation, especially given how many of those conversations end up being super short, 10, 15 seconds because they're a brush off because they're a quick hangup because the other person really didn't want to be ambushed, which is always the case and the skill wasn't there to get through the first part of the conversation and get to something that felt more coachable. 
Chris Beall (06:51):
So it's quite interesting when we look at the world of coaching, I think everybody knows it's very important that it's almost impossible to improve without it, that the unit of change within a sales team that's doing outbound calling is the individual rep. A rep will be very stable in their skills over time. They don't jump up and down with regard to their ability to open or their ability to get curious or their ability to handle standard kinds of cold calling objections or their ability to close for the meeting. Those things are pretty stable. One of them is the current bottleneck of their process and as the coach you need to find that one and then help the rep see a better way of executing that and I guess I'll say feel progress. That is when they execute in a better way, it not only produces a better result, but it feels better. 
Chris Beall (07:48):
It's a very emotional business cold calling and it's because when we call we're the invisible stranger and we know that those objections really are kind of personal away, not to us as a person but to us in the role that we've chosen to adopt the person who ambushed them. And so we already have some concerns inside us about that and it's kind of difficult to get over those concerns and get on with it much less to perform something new under that stress. So why is it that we don't coach cold calls and unscheduled follow-up calls very much? Well, they're not scheduled so the coach can't make themselves available, but they're also very fast. A lot happens in a short amount of time. So what should you coach? Do you coach something overall like the tone or the pace or how confident they sounded? Do you coach their word choice? 
Chris Beall (08:45):
What do you coach? It's not obvious what to coach. And so generally what does get coached if anything is a bit of a mishmash and the coach, the manager to get as much in to that particular coaching unit, I'll call it that feedback unit as they can and there's just no way to change multiple things at the same time for the next performance as a rep and so you just end up with a mess. The other thing is there's multiple agendas. So for instance, we run at ConnectAndSell. We run these things called flight schools and in the first session of flight school, which goes on for three hours, you're making cold calls as the student, you're actually doing real calls, you're doing the whole call end to end. Your goal is the usual goal. You're trying to get somebody to put a meeting on the calendar and yet for three hours you're going to be coached for the first three hours on every conversation or at least almost every conversation immediately after the conversation while it's still fresh in your mind and freshens your body. 
Chris Beall (09:50):
Quite frankly, you're going to be coached on how well you execute the first seven seconds of that conversation. The first seven seconds are well known now by a number of folks who've studied this to be the amount of time we have to get someone to trust us. And given that trust is imperative in B2B, both within the call and then over the long period of time that we might have a relationship with somebody if we move forward with them, trust is so important. We have to make sure that we nail it. So we spend three hours in our Flight Schools three hours on just practicing getting trust and we do it the way that Chris Voss, the author of Never Split. The Difference How to Negotiate is If Your Life Depends On, it taught me one evening when I was very fortunate to get to ask him this question, how long do we have to get trust in a cold call? 
Chris Beall (10:43):
He said, seven seconds. And he said, but it's easy. All we have to do is show the other person. We see the world through their eyes. We call it tactical empathy and then we need to demonstrate to them that we're competent to solve a problem they have right now. Well, we are the problem. Cold caller is the problem they have right now. So it's very easy to offer us a solution to that problem and it's actually fairly straightforward to make it clear that you see the world through their eyes. Just declare yourself to be a bad thing and move on. So we teach people to say, I know I'm an interruption. I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called. I know I'm an interruption, says I'm a bad thing and I'm not interrupting your day. I'm an interruption notice, I'm a noun, I'm a bad thing. 
Chris Beall (11:30):
Nobody ever says, oh, an interruption, that's a great thing. And then immediately we change our voice to a playful and curious voice and we offer a solution to the problem they have right now, which is us. Well there is in all of that I can only say a lot. So when we're coaching, we've got to find one part to work on and then we need to master that part because that part comes before the next part and if we don't master the first part, there's nothing to master in the second part. It's kind of like if I swing at the golf club at the ball and I miss the ball or I hit it off the heel or off the toe or whatever, it doesn't really matter how great my follow through looks. It's just like getting over that. What we need to do is actually figure out how to do the thing before we might hit the ball. 
Chris Beall (12:22):
It might be our stance, it might be our grip, it may be the way that we take the club back. It may be whether we're keeping our head relatively stable. There's a bunch of things that we need to do, but they're all before impact. None of them are after impact. So when we're coaching, we need to coach the before and then observe the after and then go back and coach the before again. So it's very important to have an agenda that's appropriate for what you're able to coach rather than the agenda being let's make the whole thing better. And there's various pieces. Cold calls are quite short, maybe five sentences that are always there and maybe three or four or more that are sometimes there average length of times about a minute and eight seconds unless you successfully schedule a meeting in which case you've got another, say a minute or so of meeting logistics work to do. 
Chris Beall (13:17):
So in that call lots can happen. You've got to get trust, you've got to at least acquiesce to move forward. You have to get curious and that's something that takes about three hours to coach and is also just the curiosity element of the call. You need to avoid too much value because too much value leads to the classic we're all set objection, the objection. That is frankly not handleable. And so we've got to avoid that. Learning to avoid something is very hard. We're tempted to bring in more value and under stress we tend to say we're great. Here's something more about us. And so learning how not to do something is actually much harder than quite frankly learning to do it. So these are keys to different parts of the call. So you can't really coach the whole call. You have to break it down and then you have to allow time between the coaching sessions and the learning sessions in order for that to be internalized. 
Chris Beall (14:17):
Repetition is super important. After you've coached one thing, first failure we call it, you need to have the coach, the rep actually repeats that particular thing that they're going to say probably 3, 4, 5 times immediately before going and performing again. And you need to have a mechanism to get to the next conversation quickly. I think that's how we at ConnectAndSell fell into all of this coaching and training stuff. We never intended to be there, but we do provide conversations pretty quickly, a minute and a half, two minutes. If you're connecting to the next live human, maybe three, four minutes if you're connecting to the perfect target, the actual person on your list, and that amount of time is still long enough that you're coaching input and the practice that you might have done will start to fade. That's why it takes repetition before the performance and then repetition of the performance and the next coaching cycle should be immediate and it should be the first failure actually it should be okay, you did that a little bit better, but this still could be improved. 
Chris Beall (15:29):
So that's really key to getting coaching to work. The coaching has got to be immediate. Most coaching is way, way, way, way too late. Coaching somebody on Friday I about a performance they had on Monday, don't bother. It's just not going to get anything done. This is where I think managers often confuse what I'll call deal work with coaching. They think that they're coaching, they're actually talking through how a deal might go, what some tactics and techniques might be, and they get an agreement from the rep to do something better, different whatever in the next interaction that they have with the prospect. And that feels like coaching, that's more like advising and it's nice and it's important unless it's just war stories. But coaching is really to improve performance and you need to have the performance and the coaching and the performance and the coaching be very close to each other in time. 
Chris Beall (16:28):
Minutes are okay, not very many minutes, hours are too long and a week may as well be forever. So the other thing that is required for coaching to work is you need, you actually need a script. There's nothing to coach to without a script. Coaching to generalities just doesn't work. If I'm going to teach you how to swing a golf club, I've got to have a specific idea in mind of how the golf swing works. I can't teach you a generic kind of like, well, it'll be whatever it happens to be. Let's see what feels good. I have to have a plan. You have to adopt the plan, then we have to break the plan down. And because it's a ballistic activity, a golf swing or a cold call, they follow a pattern and what you just did determines what you get to do next or what you can do next. 
Chris Beall (17:22):
You can't stop golf swing partway down successfully. I know Tiger Woods can do it. I tried it once and if this were on video, I'd show you the two broken figures that I got from my efforts. Somebody was walking in the way of it, so it was probably worthwhile, but it just showed that you think you can do things that you probably can't do. That is you have this very sort of ballistic activity, but it needs a plan. It needs a first thing, a second thing, a third thing, a fourth thing. You need to start with the first one and then you need to be coached through that until you've mastered it, not to perfection, but to be sufficient to support the next one. If you're getting enough folks to go with you and trust you into the second part of the conversation, then you can start to be coached on getting curiosity. 
Chris Beall (18:13):
A classic cold call goes from fear. That's the prospect's fear, not yours to trust in seven seconds because you did the two things Chris said you should do out of curiosity, which is how we avoid too much value, too much value and triggers the hey, we're all set objection. And then from there into basically commitment, asking for a close, you make an offer, let's meet. And then you've got to handle the natural objections after all, you ambush somebody and you have to also be ready to set yourself up for some sort of a follow-up conversation later because most of the time you're probably not going to get a meeting on a cold call. So these are all important. I'll call it tactical factors in coaching. You need a script as a framework to coach to you, coach to first failure. You need to have immediate repetition and practice of what the rep's going to say next. 
Chris Beall (19:13):
Then they need to have performance hard on the heels of that experience. And then you're observing for where they improve and for still first failure and then you give the feedback on where they improved the coaching on the next thing to practice. You practice 3, 4, 5 reps and go back in and perform again. So that's the essence of coaching. Now we have kind of a real problem though, which is that the coach and the call are independently scary. The coach is probably the manager and managers have hiring and firing authority or at least strong influence over the people on their team. And that means the coaching may be interpreted as judgment, judgment on performance that might lead to potentially loss of job. It's very hard to improve performance unless you feel free to try whatever it is that's being suggested. And when you're afraid of failing at that thing, you're less likely to perform it particularly well. 
Chris Beall (20:15):
So you have the coach being scary and then you also have the call itself being scary because nobody likes to be that invisible stranger. The invisible stranger tends to get rejected. People don't like to be rejected. Jeff Blunt wrote a beautiful book on the subject called Objections about how we feel objections as rejection and rejection is one of the most painful things we can feel. I have a theory as to why in the environment of evolution, the village being rejected ultimately could mean being rejected from the village. The word for that is exiled and exile was generally considered a punishment worse than death. So we're afraid of the coach because they hold power over us and we're afraid of the call because we know where the bad thing is and we know we're going to trigger a response. And you put those two fears together and they tend to be somewhat paralytic with regard to performance. 
Chris Beall (21:13):
And everybody's different with regard to how they handle that kind of fear. Some people, they can perform reasonably well, even if they're scared in multiple dimensions. These people can go out and be a concert pianist or a major league baseball pitcher or whatever, and they can be under tremendous pressure and still perform. Most of us haven't practiced that much and don't have that much sort of, I don't know, Prozac running in our veins I suppose is a way to put it. So what do we do about it? Well, one thing to do is just physically remove the coach. So it's natural to work from home. You can't really feel in a product like ConnectAndSell if you're the user. You're having conversations with people, you don't really feel like somebody might be listening to those conversations, even if they're clicking the little whisper button after the conversation to give you their positive feedback and to give you their first failure observation, to let you practice a little bit with them and to go back into pushing the button as we call it and having the next conversation. 
Chris Beall (22:19):
But that physical separation is actually very effective because out of sight is out of mind. It's hard to keep in mind two things. One is I'm talking to this person that I just ambushed and the other is that somebody I can't see at all is listening to me. So that's a good separation to achieve and it's actually one of the reasons that the old walk around listening to somebody, or as they said wire jacking, that's where you plug into the audio line. You plug into the headset as the coach and you're listening. That's why that's actually a harder environment, the physical environment to get high performance, which you want. You want the highest level of performance because you're looking for what shows up as a flaw. When performance is good, when performance is bad for some other reason, somebody they're sick, they're grieving, whatever it happens to be, that's a bad time to coach. 
Chris Beall (23:17):
All we're going to find out is that they're sick or they're grieving or whatever. We're not going to learn very much. So what can we do about all this? Well emphasize long live coaching. Listen in, be patient. If you don't have technology like ConnectAndSell, and so you're going to wait a while, you couldn't coach multiple folks at the same time, if you can at least aggregate the audio and switch from one to another and get an indication when a call is actually in play when talking, and again, coach one thing at a time. First failure, avoid the temptation to coach the entire conversation. Use repetition immediately before the performance and of the performance itself. That is repetition before the fragment to be tried a little bit differently and repetition of the entire call. I think it's a great idea to coach about 20 calls in a row over maybe three hours. 
Chris Beall (24:12):
That's why we structured Flight School like that. But at least having repetition of the entire performance of repetition of the coaching fragment is important. Tune up. Your listening there is drift. Everybody drifts. They drift from best practice under pressure. They go to what's comfortable. So a rep who might've said at one point, I know I'm an interruption, might take up saying, I know I'm a bit of an interruption, or I know that I'm interrupting your day. Those are very, very different. And the rep goes there because quite frankly, it's more comfortable. Comfort is always the enemy of performance in almost everything and in cold calling, it sure is. So you might get comfortable as a cold caller, but there's a more comfortable thing to do, which is to not be as good a cold caller. So use a simple script. Five sentences are enough to get the job done with the framework. 
Chris Beall (25:06):
Drive out fear every way that you can, including not being physically present and use recordings to model great calls, not to critique. 
Practice listening to recordings with your reps to find the things they improved and let them find the flaws on their own. 
For recordings, it's a little bit challenging to go in and say there was your first failure because it isn't followed by an immediate performance.
 
So in summary, coaching is tremendous for cold calls and for follow-up calls, it makes a huge difference. You're asking somebody to perform something very difficult, very technical, very nuanced, very ballistic. One thing leads to another in a challenging emotional environment where they know they are a bad thing and there's no getting around that last part. They never become a good thing. Even if in your heart you're trying to help somebody, you also know you're an interruption. 
Chris Beall (26:03):
It's super important to coach. It allows us to move the needle actually fairly quickly. We know in these Flight School sessions we've seen teams go from like 40% of quota to 110% in four or three hour sessions and stay there. As long as there is coaching for drift that goes on an ongoing basis. Simplicity is the key. Coaches got to have a chance of listening for the same thing over and over. So it's really, really important to do it. But most of what's called coaching isn't really coaching, it's kind of advising it's too far after the fact. 
 
So if you can figure out ways, be listening behind the scenes, coming in and whispering to somebody immediately after a conversation and helping them perform that little bit better on first failure, you'll find over time that and fairly short amount of time that what you're hoping for in the bottom line, which is conversion rates, small number of conversations, leads to a bigger number of meetings, and a larger number of meetings are being set per rep hour, which is the key number. You'll find that stuff improves on its own. So start from the beginning, you'll get to the end. Eventually, you'll get some great results. So for market dominance guys, without Corey Frank here, I'm Chris Beall. Just thought you might like a sort of practicum on coaching and happy calling out there.