You’re about to make a cold call, hoping to get a commitment out of your prospect. What are you feeling? A little trepidation, perhaps? As all salespeople know, that’s the fear of rejection. But have you ever considered that your prospect is feeling some fear too? It’s true: most prospective customers feel the fear of having to talk to an invisible stranger. That’s a lousy way to start a conversation with someone you’re wanting a commitment from. So, how do you, an invisible stranger, get your prospect, an unknown person, to go quickly from fear to trust, then from trust to curiosity, and, finally, from curiosity to commitment — all in about a half of a minute? And how do you do it so the call doesn’t end with a disappointing outcome? Chris, Corey, and today’s Market Dominance Guys’ guest, Oren Klaff, managing director of Intersection Capital, tackle this challenge with a discussion about trust and how to manufacture it, especially at the speed and scale necessary for startup founders to glean success — before their new venture runs out of money.
Listen to the continuation of this passionate conversation:
About Our Guest Oren Klaff is managing director of Intersection Capital, which provides training, management, and advisory services in the areas of technology banking, healthcare investment banking, and asset-backed securities. Oren is also the author of Pitch Anything and Flip the Script.
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The complete transcript of this episode is below:
Chris Beall (01:54):
So, we're going to jump right in on the recording, because we got the great Oren Klaff. Oren, I am listening to Flip the Script. It is making me a little sick actually, when you come right down to... I'm getting a little ill because I keep going, "Oh, shit. I do that. And I didn't have a name for it. I'm such a dope."
Oren Klaff (02:14):
Yeah. It's funny. I get calls from guys at Goldman Sachs, and they'll go, "Hey, listen. Listen. That's a great book. Just want to tell you it's great. But we do that. You didn't invent that." But, it doesn't say I want to tell you about the things that I invented.
Chris Beall (02:30):
Right. [crosstalk 00:02:30].
Oren Klaff (02:30):
All it says is you should do this, or well, you wrote it down good, we just didn't have time to write it down. Yeah, okay. Well, that's why you don't have a book.
Chris Beall (02:39):
I was just talking to a guy named Jared Robin, who started the thing called RevGenius, and they have a thing called the Outbound Club. So we signed up to sponsor it, and we're going to provide unlimited ConnectAndSell to the participants. And we're making an e-sport out of cold call. And your e-sports story with the sniper was what I just finished listening to. And I said, "Look, dude, what we're going to do is we'll make an e-sport out of this. We're going to give Mark Cuban a call. He's an e-sports guy. I'm going to say finally, an e-sport for business."
Oren Klaff (03:08):
That's awesome. Yeah.
Chris Beall (03:09):
It's time [crosstalk 00:03:10].
Oren Klaff (03:10):
That is awesome. Man, I wish I was smart.
Corey Frank (03:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm the Paul Shaffer, the perpetual Ed McMahon, Andy Richter. On this couch today, as I was preparing for this to finally get two of my good friends, two of my good mentors in one virtual room at the same time, I was telling Oren earlier, about 90% of the soundbites and riffs that I've used over the last couple of years I think has come from one or both of your sources, and the tank is running low. So this is a purely selfish endeavor to fill that tank and to shamelessly steal all this information, [crosstalk 00:03:48]-
Oren Klaff (03:48):
Oh really? You need a sound bite? You need a sound bite? Here's a good one. Just tell your kids, "Hey, I brought you into this world. I can take you out." That's a good soundbite.
Chris Beall (03:55):
That is a good one.
Corey Frank (03:56):
I think that was in Pitch Anything. I've used that before. We had one of the titans of... Don't step on my lines, here. One of the titans of sales thought leadership, author of a few best-selling books. Pitch Anything, which is one of the top five sales books of all time. He is a consummate craftsman, constant alchemist of our profession, and has done more to advance the boundaries I think of sales thought leadership than almost anyone in the field today. We have the one, the only Oren Klaff to go along with the Sage of Sales here on the market dominance podcast today. Chris Beall, please welcome Oren Klaff to the program.
Oren Klaff (04:38):
Thank you. That was nice. I just wish I had more people saying nice stuff about me.
Corey Frank (04:44):
Today, it's great to have, because I think especially we were talking about Flip the Script and Pitch Anything, and Chris, you're knee-deep and Flip the Script right now. One of the things we talk about on the Market Dominance podcast, Oren, is this concept of cold calling, and how do you get and manufacture trust at scale?
Corey Frank (05:03):
One of the things that Chris and I talk about is the state of a prospect. When we first call, their natural state as this invisible stranger who's calling them, right Chris, is that fear. That's their emotional state. And so how do you get from fear to trust and then trust to curiosity, and that curiosity and turn that into commitment?
Corey Frank (05:26):
So, I think as Chris and I were talking about last week, it'd be great to ask you your thoughts of how you manufacture trust. And do you agree that it can be manufactured at scale? And how do you attack that concept that somebody who is not expecting a phone call, yet we need to penetrate that veneer, that barrier that they have in order to get some trust.
Oren Klaff (05:55):
I mean, this is going to be a very fast entry into the world of Pitch Anything and Oren Klaff. I mean, it would be good for people to scale into it.
Oren Klaff (06:05):
But basically, I mean, this presumes that trust is a valuable state, all right? This presumes that them trusting you is a valuable state for them to have. And I think that is a good, common assumption that's been in sales for over the last 50 years. The problem is that I think if you really look at trust, not academically, although you can look at it academically, not in conversation with guys like us who dabble in this, but in your own life, where have you ever manufactured trust rapidly? One function of true trust is time. Time is ball of wax choking on a splinter.
Oren Klaff (06:47):
So time. And so I think in my worldview, you're really looking at a proxy for trust. Something that stands in for trust because you don't have, in five seconds, 10 seconds, three minutes, five minutes, 11 minutes, 59 minutes. In my mind, that is not enough time to get real, defensible, robust, high quality, leverageable, you can trade on it, put it in your pipeline, this is going to happen trust.
Oren Klaff (07:17):
And give you an example. My partner Jack called me up today, and I go, "Jack, I don't like the way you sound today, because we're doing a deal, and you don't sound happy." Right? "And so you're going to make a couple million dollars here. You should be coming out of your sneakers, or whatever it is you're wearing over there where you are, and excited and we're making money. And you're making me nervous, because you're not happy about making more money than we've made all year. What is going on?"
Oren Klaff (07:43):
He goes, "No, no, I love the deal. I just don't know that the money is going to show up, the two million bucks is going to show up." I go, "Listen to me. Write this on your arm. Oren Klaff is delivering two million dollars for this deal. And go on the weekend and get yourself happy, because I can't take it, this unhappiness." And he goes, "Okay, I'll do it."
Oren Klaff (08:03):
Trust. We've been working together for 10 years. Now, he makes his next phone call, and he goes, "Mumble, mumble, mumble," right? And the guy goes, "Hey, what's going on Jack?" "I don't know if the money is going to show up." And he goes, "Don't worry. I'm going to make the money show up." And he's just going to go, "Mumble, mumble, mumble," because he doesn't trust the guy. Trust takes years to develop. You need a proxy for trust.
Oren Klaff (08:23):
And so, I'll tell you a quick story. We go to rent a... Because at some point in my career I [inaudible 00:08:31] book, and a lot of people love me, and then the podcast and everything like that. And we go to rent a studio in Los Angeles. 10,000 square feet, because Oren Klaff's big head needs a 10,000 square foot studio to be filmed in. And they have a crane that zooms down, and cameras, and audio gear. Because that's when I thought that really mattered. Maybe it does.
Oren Klaff (08:50):
So anyway, so we walk in and we're in the green room. No, we're in the lobby, we're not in the green room, and the guy, "Listen, we have another thing film..." Just when we were going to check it out to hire it, right? Because it's whatever, $10,000 for the day. It used to be real money back in the day, Corey. And so the guy goes, "You can go back and check it out, the space. There's another film crew back there. Just wanted to let you know, watch out for the line." And we go, "Well, okay, so it's Los Angeles. Fashion line, fishing line." Watch out for the line. We go, "Yeah, we'll watch out for the line, great."
Oren Klaff (09:17):
We walk back there. Whoa! It's a lion! L-I-O-N. It's a lion. All right? But don't worry. And so they're filming the lion for a vodka or a watch commercial with a half-naked woman. But she's not with the lion, right? That's not how, when you see that in a magazine... Sorry, Chris, I'm taking over your podcast, but when you see a woman with a lion, the woman is not there with the lions. The lions are dangerous. And so there's no safe lion. You guys know that, right?
Oren Klaff (09:49):
So anyway, we're talking to guys and he goes, "Shit," very softly. "You don't want to upset Major." I'm like, Well..." And so they go, "Don't worry. Major, there's an invisible fence. There's an invisible fence that keeps Major from hopping out on the crew and everything like that. But you just don't want to move fast and look like prey and everything like that. So just keep it down and don't move fast."
Oren Klaff (10:11):
And then I'm talking to one of the crew, he's like, "Yeah, the invisible fence works a hundred percent, right? Unless Major gets mad, and then he doesn't give a shit about the invisible fence," right?
Oren Klaff (10:21):
And so I feel like these rules here that are in place are this invisible fence. And you want to find things today... Because everything's changed. Let's not get into the change, Zoom, and COVID, and not meeting in person, and number of contacts, and data and machine learning, and databases, and AI, and constant ringing of phones, and look-alike audiences and all that stuff, right? So all that change.
Oren Klaff (10:46):
So I think the stuff leftover from the 1950s of trust and value proposition and a trial close, you can get your inner Major, break out of your invisible fence and try some of that stuff outside of the line. And so, then I will take you somewhere that I got by getting mad and breaking through my invisible fence, and a proxy, I think, for trust. But by the way, we're talking quite abstractly. Maybe we should just mock up a call so we can just mark what trust is. So Corey, I mean, you're great at this. What would a trust script sound like?
Corey Frank (11:23):
Well, we happen to Chris, you want to talk about the breakthrough script, since this is what the folks at ConnectAndSell use on the phone millions of times a year. So let's walk through the steps on this. And Chris, you had Chris Voss from Never Split the Difference certainly give his thoughts on this. So now we have another titan in the arena here, let's get some of Oren's impression on this.
Chris Beall (11:47):
Sure, absolutely, Oren. I love it.
Chris Beall (12:32):
By the way, Oren, I used to play with a lioness when I was a kid. My mom worked at a veterinarian's office, and they boarded this lioness every year. And my mother actually encouraged me to stick my hand out, and this animal would take my entire hand up to mid-forearm in her mouth. And I quote, she would say, "Ahhhhhh."
Oren Klaff (12:54):
Oh, that's incredible. That's incredible. Yeah.
Chris Beall (12:59):
So I made sure to use my left hand just in case my mom was wrong. Because then at least I could have a shot at life after that [crosstalk 00:13:08] my mom.
Oren Klaff (13:08):
Oh no, I mean, those animals... My parents are from South Africa. Those animals are gentle, beautiful, kind, loving, sweet. Until they're not.
Chris Beall (13:21):
Until they're not.
Oren Klaff (13:25):
It's not like me at six o'clock, "Hey guys, I just want to let you know I'm getting irritable, okay? Everybody stay out of my way. Just let me eat dinner, read my email, get work done, and go to bed. But clear the hell out of my way." You don't get that from a lion. I mean, they're like wolves.
Oren Klaff (13:41):
Anyway, I know this is not an animal show, but wolves, they take these baby wolves, right? And they've never seen anything but a human. So they raise them in contact with humans 24 hours a day, right? They don't have contact with her, with the parent wolves. And they raise them to be socialized with humans. They're never out of contact with a human. And even then, I saw a whole, not 60 Minutes, but whatever the... Discovery Channel thing on it. Even then, a young pup Wolf with a human that he's been in contact with hundreds of times, for a hundred hours, his main contact in the living world, will just snap and attack.
Chris Beall (14:16):
Let's just play. Yeah, that's the world I grew up in.
Chris Beall (14:18):
Hey, so the context here for this particular trust thing that we've been exploring on Market Dominance is about two alternatives, two different ways of approaching large markets. So this isn't deal at a time kind of stuff at the beginning. This is how do you go from, "Huh, I think I should be selling to somebody out there of these thousands," to figuring out who you should actually be selling to, to actually doing it at pace and scale? And doing it with people you can hire. This is the Silicon Valley problem, I'll call it.
Oren Klaff (14:50):
Chris Beall (14:51):
But it's a problem that others have. We work with a company, and I was just talking to him today, and he said, "Don't say our name." So think German air compressor company sells to factories in the U.S. and in Germany, obviously.
Chris Beall (15:06):
So the question on their mind was, well, we got these door knockers, right? Got about 72 people in 17 branches, and then knock on doors. And then this internet of things comes along and they can't knock on doors anymore. Every factory starts to put up fences, put up a security guard. Now you got to get an appointment. So how can we teach our door knockers to get an appointment?
Chris Beall (15:27):
So the amount of trust that's required is kind of like the amount of trust that's required when my mom and the lioness's owner, said, "Go ahead. Let her play with your hand," right? It's not the amount of trust that's required for me to say, spend a night in a company of that lioness when she was hungry. It's not that depth where I can put my life in her hands. Not like my buddy Jim Haggart sent me a birthday card two days ago, and [inaudible 00:15:52] said, "You've got a pretty deep relationship with this guy." I said, "Guy saves your life more than 150 times, you're going to have a deep relationship. That's literally trusting you with my life."
Oren Klaff (16:01):
Chris Beall (16:03):
But this is a little bit different. What this is, is when you look at the beginning state, which is, we don't know who to talk to. And then you look at the information paucity. We don't have enough information to tell us who to talk to, so we're going to have to have a conversation in order to get a conversation about having a conversation. So now you're in this problem, and then you're trying to figure out how do I do this at pace and scale before I run out of money. Which is the big issue with all these Silicon Valley guys and even a German air compressor company. You don't run out of money. You're the boss. You run out of keeping your job, right?
Oren Klaff (16:34):
Chris Beall (16:34):
Because you didn't get it done. So as we looked at this, and we get to look at it scientifically. We deliver a few conversations a year, about two and a half million. And so we have a fair amount of grist for our mill. I don't know what two and a half million squared is, but it's a big-ass number. So, we have statistical significance against a big number of two and a half billion squared, roughly.
Chris Beall (16:57):
And when we looked at what folks were doing, they were trying to do the old-fashioned thing of leading with value. And so they're leading with value. First, they lead with rapport, like me, then value, business value, and then they're hoping to get in a relationship that has something to do with the value.
Chris Beall (17:13):
And what we found was this guy in Denver that we had, name is Jordan [DuFour 00:17:20], was leading a different way, and it made everything better in the sales cycle. He worked for us. He was selling ConnectAndSell, using ConnectAndSell, works for us. And he was leading like this. "Oren, I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?" And that two-sentence thing he was doing, which we all thought was goofier than the goofiest thing we'd ever heard. He is a goofy guy. Jordan, if you're watching this, you're kind of a goofy, dude. He has a very great skill and asking people for things. He has no hesitation, right? But he would have better results all the way through the sales process, and that was the only thing he did different.
Chris Beall (18:00):
So we asked ourselves, well, what happens when other people do it? I just blindly tried. Good science, right? Just spread it around and see what happens. And so we did that and it had the same effect over and over and over. But only if they got the tone right. "I know I'm an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds tell you why I called?" And we still didn't understand the damn thing, but we spread it around.
Chris Beall (18:19):
And then this guy Noah Blumenthal comes along, and I help him get his company's named sold, a big company in Redmond, Washington. They called up one day, didn't say who they were. I figured out who they were. I was advising this company $1.1 million in one day. So now he's got a little bit of money. He's not going to go out of business. He's got a product, and not much product, interesting concept. And he's going out to sell it, and he hires a sales guy. Calls me up, says, "Oh, I hired a sales guy. I'm so proud." I said, "Great. So now I'm going to fire you as an advisor. I'm not going to advise you anymore. Because what we're going to learn is you don't know how to hire sales guys. Which we already knew. So you're spending money to find out something you already knew. That's stupid. Let's not do that. You got to sell this damn thing yourself."
Chris Beall (19:05):
He said, "Well, how do I get the meetings?" I said, "You're going to cold call the CEOs of Fortune 1000 companies."
Oren Klaff (19:10):
Chris Beall (19:11):
He said, "I'm going to do what? I've never cold-called anybody in my life." We argue, we argue, we argue. Finally he says, "If I'm scripted, I can try it." I said, "I don't do scripting." This is back when I was ignorant of scripting. I said, "Well, so what?" And he says, "Well, I do scripting. I do it. I do it for TEDx talks for other people. I'm an expert." I said, "Okay, let's script you."
Chris Beall (19:34):
He scripts himself up five hours, three sentences later, and he comes up with these three more sentences. He tries it out. He gets three times the appointment rate we've ever seen. And he's lame-ass on the phone. Lame-ass. Noah, my forgiveness, but you will agree with me if you're watching this, that you sound like you're reading the script because you're reading the script. And he gets meetings with the chief operating officer of Dell Technologies and stuff like that.
Chris Beall (20:02):
So now we're going, "Holy moly." We got a technology that delivers 10 times more conversations. This guy has just proven you can be lame-ass and get meetings on a curiosity-based script whose main feature is this weird opening that he didn't invent, someone else invented it.
Chris Beall (20:21):
And then I asked Chris Voss about it at a dinner one night. And he says, "Oh yeah, all we got to do is we got seven seconds to get somebody to trust us in a hostage negotiation phone call. Seven seconds is all we got. It's too late otherwise. And we got to show them we see the world through their eyes and we got to prove we can solve a problem that they have right now." And I thought, "Holy shit, I'm the problem they have right now, and I know I'm competent to solve that problem."
Chris Beall (20:46):
And so that's the smidge. It's a sliver of trust. It is not bet your house, do a deal with me. It's just enough to reverse the standard equation, which is I'm going to get value into your head first. After all, I ambushed you. I'm an invisible stranger. I'm like the worst thing in the world. I showed up from across the river. You paint your face vertically, I paint mine horizontally. You put a bone in your nose, I'm the idiot who puts them in my ears. I'm horrible. And when I show up, I'm invisible, it's nighttime, and I'm here to change your demographics, right?
Chris Beall (21:20):
So that's the little tiny sliver that we're talking about. And you know what? What's weird is it's teachable in zero time to non-salespeople who can then actually get meetings that people show up at and are shocked.
Oren Klaff (21:38):
I have to hear what comes after it, but I would have to test the assumption that it's creating trust.
Chris Beall (21:44):
Yeah, we could be lying to ourselves.
Oren Klaff (21:46):
Well, yeah. I mean-
Chris Beall (21:47):
Oren Klaff (21:47):
I think what it's creating is novelty. And so it could be that you could get very similar results by saying, "Hey John, it's Oren. The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe."
Chris Beall (22:00):
Oren Klaff (22:00):
So think, so that would have to be checked, because the net result, and I think you agree, you said it yourself, is now you've left yourself in a very low-status position that you've got to claw out of.
Chris Beall (22:13):
I don't think so. I don't think so.
Oren Klaff (22:14):
So if we're chasing trust, right? And so I think there's some other things that could stand in as a proxy for it. One thing I was going to go to is serendipity. So when you use serendipity, you're going to get the same impact of, "Yes, I'm willing to stay on this line, hear what's next."
Oren Klaff (22:39):
So serendipity is normally we have here at [inaudible 00:22:43], "Hey Chris, it's Oren from Intersection. Normally, my admin would be calling you on this, but I took a quick look at this, and see, I'm the managing director here, and I decided to jump on this account." Okay? A lot of words. So serendipity is normally you would have talked to somebody low status, but I took a quick look at this, and I realized you guys need a managing director to talk to you.
Oren Klaff (23:11):
So, I'm not sure that's perfect for all your situations, but that kind of serendipity is very attractive to people, and we're not sacrificing status. Saying, "I know I'm in the interruption," is now a hole that we then have to fight out of.
Chris Beall (23:27):
Actually, I haven't seen that. It depends on how it's said. If you say it right, the upfront, "I know I'm an interruption," and then you go to playful curious, "Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?" You're not asking permission. Somebody says may, they're screwed. If they say please they're screwed. If they ask a question of fact, then you can get to serendipity and you get to it really easily, which is the very next thing. They always say, "Go ahead," by the way. This thing, this is proven to work, and they say it with a chuckle and it's not a downward social chuckle. It's pretty much straight across. You've got to listen to some of these.
Oren Klaff (24:03):
I hear that, but it's an eye-roller, right?
Chris Beall (24:06):
Oren Klaff (24:07):
It's an eye roller.
Chris Beall (24:09):
You and your emotional responses to this. This is science, man.
Oren Klaff (24:13):
Chris Beall (24:13):
Eye rolling or not eye-rolling, this is science. Oh, by the way, John T. McLaren rolls his eyes when he hears you read your book.
Oren Klaff (24:18):
Chris Beall (24:19):
I just hear it and go, "That's Oren. Sounds great."
Oren Klaff (24:21):
Chris Beall (24:24):
Here's the thing. We're trying to get regular people, not MDs.
Oren Klaff (24:28):
Chris Beall (24:28):
To be able to cause a senior person, much more senior than that, to take a meeting. And serendipity is in fact the key to the whole thing. Because the next thing they say, and I was listening to Flip the Script and you use this word many times, you used the word discover. We've discovered.
Chris Beall (24:48):
"My team and I," you say, always. You say, "My team of linguistic psychologists or cognitive psychologists or whatever they are, there's hundreds of them and they're ranked back there, have discovered blah, blah, blah," right? Which makes you innocent. We don't have to have any psychological reactance. Because you found it. You were lucky. It's serendipity. We're so happy for all of us. We want to rub shoulders with the lucky dude, right?
Oren Klaff (25:14):
Chris Beall (25:16):
And so we teach these people to raise their status immediately to being somebody to be curious about, somebody who has discovered something new, and somebody who's a little ambiguous in terms of who they are. Which you do also, you say, "My team and I," right? You never just say, "I have discovered," right?
Oren Klaff (25:34):
Chris Beall (25:34):
You never say that.
Oren Klaff (25:34):
Of course not. No.
Chris Beall (25:35):
We teach people to say this. To get their attention they say, "I believe." So that's the established... When I say, "I believe," you should listen, right? "Oren, I believe we've discovered a breakthrough." That completely eliminates, and then we say some really bad-ass thing that it completely eliminates, right? And the bad-ass thing is normally something economic like cost or risk or something, something emotional like frustration.
Oren Klaff (26:02):
Chris Beall (26:03):
And something, we call it strategic, like you're trying to go somewhere and there's a blocker, and we've discovered a way of doing something about it, but we're not going to tell you what it is, we're not going to tell you what business we're in, and no matter how often you ask, we're not going to tell you that shit. We're just not going to tell you. So for us, we say, "I believe we've discovered a breakthrough that completely eliminates the waste and the frustration that keeps your best sales reps from being effective on the phone or even using the phone at all. And the reason I reached out to you today is to get 15 minutes on your calendar to share this breakthrough with you. Do you happen to have your calendar available?"
Chris Beall (26:36):
And what is interesting and surprising is this shit works, right? And it works a funny reason. Because the journey, you can call it trust or something else, the journey is from I ambushed you and you don't like it, probably because you're afraid of me. And then I relieve the fear, so maybe it's relief, but you're willing to go a little farther. And then I go immediately to serendipity, to curiosity. And then I let the curiosity sit there and see if you're willing to make a commitment, which is not to do something but to tell me something. If you happen to have your calendar available. It's just a simple question. Most people do. It's a question of fact.
Chris Beall (27:19):
And we haven't found anything better that's teachable to regular people so you can hire them, like Corey does, and have them producing money that day, which is what our goal is. We want to hire regular people and have them producing money that day, regardless of the business.
Oren Klaff (27:40):
Chris Beall (27:40):
So far, eh... Now what I want to do is take my guys because they're in discovery and take my customer's guys and gals because they're in discovery and teach them to flip the script. Because I think we push the bottleneck down there now, because we can manufacture meetings [inaudible 00:27:57].
Oren Klaff (27:58):
That's where we live. We think today what has happened is leads are available. We don't have anybody who really can't produce leads, or can't get leads, or can't go with ConnectAndSell and Corey. And so conversion is... I think the larger issue today is you can get on a call, you can get on the calendar, there are efficiencies either on the pure technology funnel side, on the advertising, on the intent-based side, or the outreach, as you're discovering and using is creating efficiencies in the lead creation, right?
Oren Klaff (28:37):
So then we get the 15 minutes. And then we get the value proposition out in terms of the... And then we get to an offer. And then conversion, then, is a higher-order skill set that we need these same efficiencies in. How can you take a regular person and get them to improve on conversion on the leads? So that's the next I think goal in terms of scalability is scaling conversion once you've got lead generation or appointment generation scaled.
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