EP65: I’m Not the Salesman Your Mother Warned You About

The Market Dominance Guys, Chris and Corey, welcome a new guest this week: Jason Beck, Vice President of Sales at Enerex. Or as Corey dubbed him — the Pied Piper of Retail Energy.

The topic today? What leads to the adoption of a new product or service.

Jason is a big believer in the role of trust in establishing business relationships that will lead to adoption. “Trust is so hard to gain,” he says, “and so easy to lose.” In gaining trust, it’s a two-step program, Jason explains. First, be honest in the claims you make about your product’s value — not as you hope it will one day perform, but as it performs today. And second, find out what your prospects fear most and make sure you and your company are none of those things. If you’re trying to dominate any market, Jason continues, you need to be working toward that tipping point where your initial adopters, whose trust you have successfully gained, will begin vouching for you to your new prospects.

Chris, Corey, and Jason end the podcast with a frank discussion about that dirty word “sales.” They talk about the negative reputation sales acquired and why people fear being sold to. You’ll want to listen in for Chris’ insights about how to turn that frown upside down by shining a brighter light on the necessary role of salespeople in the B2B world. Join us for this episode of The Market Dominance Guys: I’m Not the Salesman Your Mother Warned You About.

About Our Guest

Jason Beck is Vice President of Sales at Enerex, retail energy's trusted data platform, providing secure connectivity to the entire value chain — brokers, suppliers, agents, customers, and utilities — to drive efficient transactions. Their flagship service, Sparkplug, is the #1 retail energy sales platform in the world, powering over 10% of US commercial and industrial (C&I) transactions.

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The complete transcript of this episode is below:

Corey Frank (02:06):

Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and my very handsome co-host, with the Howard Cosell headphones on this evening, Chris Beall, the Sage of sales, the prophet of profit and the Prince of the P&L. And today, Chris, we have yet another guest. Do we not, the incomparable, Mr. Jason Beck, VP of sales for Enerex. And we'll have Jason certainly tell a little bit about his background, but most you could say at the very least he's a VP of sales of Enerex, but he's also bigger than that. He's an entrepreneur and he's an innovator and he's probably a gadfly of the status quo. How about that? I think we can probably describe, Jason better [inaudible 00:02:52].

Jason Beck (02:51):

What is [crosstalk 00:02:55].

Corey Frank (02:55):

Yeah. It's not just a bad thing to give and it's a good thing to give. You see you're proverbial fly in the ointment of many a mouse trap that you have come across. Mr. Beck. Great to have you on the Market Dominance Guys here, Jason. So Chris, why is Jason sitting in the hot seat with the Market Dominance Guys today? Not only is he one of your newest, best clients I have connected [inaudible 00:03:17] of course, but over the course of the communication and the relationship with Jason, there's something about Market Dominance, is it not that we said, we got to have Jason here on the show?

Chris Beall (03:27):

Well, Jason represents the world that I lived in forever, which is the world of what I'll call pure innovation, where you come up with something that's really new that people said, "Yeah, I don't know." And then you go out and you make it so. And so I've been doing that stuff as you know for way too long. And what's interesting about innovation, pure innovation and market dominance is they very rarely go together. So it's a wonderful thing to innovate and the stronger the innovation, the more dimensions that it has that are different from the status quo, the harder it is and the less likely it is that you're going to succeed and take those to market.

Chris Beall (04:07):

Well, Jason and his team have already succeeded in taking theirs to market. And he's done other ones before that. So I figured we could talk about this big, big question, which is you got something new and it really does change everything, maybe not everybody in the world, but for a defined audience, how in the world do you cause them to see the world in a new way and adopt your new thing? So that's what I'm interested in with Jason. I don't know what Jason, does that make a lick of sense to you?

Jason Beck (04:37):

Oh, it makes a ton of sense to me. In fact, I love talking about this kind of stuff. I think when you're ever trying to change the world or change just a portion of the small world that we live in and ours is retail energy, it really starts, a, with having a strategy but b, I don't think there's ever a right way to do it, that you strategize, you execute, then you evaluate. And if you did something wrong, that's the evaluation process so you can restrategize and do it again the next time. It's an iterative cycle and our story here at Enerex, I think absolutely prove that out in what we're trying to do in retail energy.

Corey Frank (05:11):

And what's broken about retail energy, Jason, that... You have this pied piper approach where you see a challenge, you try to fix it. And as Chris said, you get a bunch of fish to try to follow you around to see the world as you do. So maybe we can start with what was broken about retail energy that had you wake up in a cold sweat and say, "I got to fix this."

Jason Beck (05:31):

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. And interesting to hear your guys' take on this as senior salespeople, right? People who have sold many more things than I've ever sold in my life. My background is I was in retail energy from the get-go first job out of college, worked for Constellation, the largest energy supplier in the country. And I was working on the supplier side of the business. Retail energy is a two-sided market. You have your suppliers, right? Those that are producing power or some them are just buying wholesale and selling retail, but you have your suppliers who are taking responsibility for that power. And then you have what has emerged as a very, very robust broker market. 82% of all CNI deals or commercial industrial deals are sold through a retail energy broker. Why? And that by the way that's changed over the years, over the last 10 years, it's gone from 40% to 80 plus percent.

Jason Beck (06:20):

And the reason is, is because it's a complex sale. It's the same reason why you would have an insurance broker or a financial broker. Energy's not incredibly easy to understand. All the different components that go into it. So just to give you that background is two-sided market theory. Okay, great. I mean, we have a lot of other two-sided markets in this country. I just named a few of them. And you also look at things like travel, which used to be a two-sided market, right? And now is more dominated by online shopping and online websites. I don't think technical sales ever gets there, but for our technical sales, what was the problem? And to get to your answer to what's broken the communication between brokers and suppliers is emails and spreadsheets and PDF documents, and just really old school stuff that, how do you automate and how do you get quicker and faster?

Jason Beck (07:08):

And how do you look better in the eyes of the end use customer, who you're trying to serve as an industry? Definitely not through old processes, archaic processes that don't lend itself to new technology and with APIs and cross system communication. And that's what we set out here to do at Enerex and realize that in retail energy, the only thing and what Chris talks about of this innovation, the only thing that existed is shopping websites. So a broker who would say, "Hey, I'm a broker. Hey, all you other brokers come work underneath me." Everyone wants their own piece of the pie if you will.

Jason Beck (07:46):

We're a bunch of entrepreneurs in retail energy, and that's not the way I think the industry comes together. It comes together by having a trusted third party that is friends with brokers, is friends with suppliers not competing against either one of those. We have a phrase here that says to be the market, you can't be participating in the market, right? Yeah. So and I really do think that's kind of part of the secret sauce but for again, when we talk about this introducing a new concept, that was the hardest part. We looked at it and said, "There's a better way to do what we're doing. How do we get from where we're at today to there?" And it's a seven-year big, hairy, audacious goal of ours to become the source of trust for retail energy.

Corey Frank (08:30):

Chris and I talk about this quite a bit. One of our earlier episodes, Chris, we talked about innovation, did we not? Where we talk about the bottleneck of innovation is go to market, not necessarily invention in its pure form. So it's been a seven year startup journey, but obviously it looks exponential where you may have this new mouse trap, but to actually get it to market and show this innovation economy, right? The friction is so great. But once you get out to the market in great scale, you said the key term, trusted relationships, trusted conversations, right. It gets easier. So from that perspective, a little bit on the journey of being this pied piper share with us a little bit about kind of what it took to have people see your way. You talked about the challenges, talk about some of the grease skids here that you've been able to achieve.

Jason Beck (09:23):

Yeah, that's interesting too. This journey, we set off three and a half years ago as PowerMatrix. And PowerMatrix, my business partner and our CEO Deepinder Singh, and I really grew PowerMatrix and the market dominance was Nate Richards and Nate Richards ran a company called Energy Frameworks. And our goal in the beginning was to serve the broker side of the community with great software. Now I'll stop there for a second and say, that was always our dream. Always our vision was we will serve the broker side of the market and then bring together brokers and suppliers. But when we talk to suppliers early on about this idea of API communication, a secure data platform for retail energy, they all said, "Well, when you get enough brokers to adopt that vision, call us," but that's who we're after, right. Just saying that you have a solution or showing a solution and no one's using it out on other side.

Jason Beck (10:16):

And this is why I think a two-sided market is so interesting because you really have to kind of get one side to buy in before you get the other side to buy-in right. But taking you back on that journey, that was always the vision. But we knew we had to serve the broker side first and Core was the Energy Frameworks product that Nate Richards was running at the time. And we caught his eye by growing really fast. And then basically two years after the start of our journey. And I remember it like it was yesterday because it was actually two years ago, three days ago. And Nate said, "Hey, Jason, let's get together for lunch." We're both down here in Houston and it was very quickly, why are we fighting each other? We both have the same vision and you're growing fast. And I have all this 10 years of experience.

Jason Beck (11:00):

Why don't we work together and dominate the market. And overnight, then we did become that. We now serve 100 customers, today we serve 120 on the broker side. And that was when that tipping point. And I think that's what you look for always when you're trying to dominate a market is the tipping point for the suppliers, it was always let's see you serve 100 plus brokers. And if you do that, I don't think there's any reason why we wouldn't talk to you. Now, we sit here today, again, halfway through our journey. We do have supplier clients. We're proving out this out data can make the process so much easier of a retail energy transaction. And that's really in 2021, what we're doing is proving out those efficiencies, but we have now participants on both sides. And where does that start? It starts with providing value to the consumers that you're providing software to. And that's what we focused on with the broker side to start off that journey.

Corey Frank (11:55):

Got you.

Chris Beall (11:55):

It's an interesting problem, right. I was intimately deeply involved in the world of marketplace, B2B marketplaces in '98 to 2001. I supplied the electronic catalog and technology as the CTO and then the chief strategy corporate development officer of a company called Requisite Technology. That was kind of we dominated the world of electronic cataloging for B2B. And what we found was that the chasm crossing exercise for marketplaces was fundamentally more challenging than it was for two set of marketplaces than it was for regular companies, because you had to make a choice buy side or sell side, so to speak, and then you had to make it stick. And until you made the choice, made it stick and provided the independent value. You as an intermediary were of no interest to anybody who in particular was on the sell side. So they wouldn't see you as being big enough, liquid enough or whatever to play with you.

Chris Beall (12:56):

It sounds like you you've done that move a little bit differently from most. You've taken us in a situation where somebody was across the chasm with the 10 years and you guys are approaching it at warp speed and you built a bridge of trust in order to call it a gossamer bridge and skipped across what normally would have cost a huge amount of money. How did you get to the trust point where that's even possible in that relationship? Normally that's like preying mantis city. Somebody's going to eat somebody's head before somebody else is going to have sex with them and it's just... Corey is used to this. So how did you do that? I mean, it's like you described it, but something tells me if you remember it like it was yesterday, then it's a little bit more than, hey, let's get together and have a little chat, right?

Jason Beck (13:52):

Trust is so hard to gain and so easy to lose, right? It is one of the hardest things to gain and the easiest things to lose. And when I think about trust and I think about how great relationships get formed, it is first do what you say you're going to do, right? You got to be accountable. So if I promise that let's say a broker of ours and it's like, "Hey, here's our value proposition. This is what the software is going to do for you." If I was talking about all these pie in the sky features that the software actually didn't have today, but it was, "Oh, it's coming, it's coming. Don't worry. Don't worry." And I wasn't as a sales person, very articulate about, "Hey, this is our roadmap." And a roadmap can change, but here's what I can do for you today, right?

Jason Beck (14:32):

That's the first part about the whole gaining the trust factor of this and why we've moved at warp speed. I also think that merging the two companies is another really... That's a how do you sign up 50 customers overnight, merged two companies that have 50 customers, right? So that was a big part of why we're here where we're at. And we've had very supportive customers in that. But I think the other part of trust, and I get back to this whole forming a relationship. Once you know your customer pool or your target market intimately, you have to figure out what are their fears? What do they fear about a relationship with you? And you need to make sure that you're none of those things. And when I say none of those things, I mean, not even the semblance of it and specifically in our industry, what does it mean, a brokerage book of business. I'm not selling widgets.

Jason Beck (15:17):

I am a consultant of sorts. I'm a value added resource. I'm a knowledgeable expert in retail energy as a broker, right? And I'm serving my end use customers. So what's your true asset? It's your brain, right? What the knowledge you have in your head as a retail broker, but it's also your data. It's your customer book. It's the accounts, the meters, right. It's all those type of things. And so why would any broker trust another broker with that data? So for Enerex, it was incredibly important that we have no broker licenses. We're not competing against you, Mr. Customer. In fact, we are trying to do everything we can to be your guide on this journey and let you be the hero.

Jason Beck (16:39):

As some of these [inaudible 00:16:40]. They're marketing new stuff that talks about that, right? Being the guide as the software provider, not being the hero, I don't need to be the hero. Yes. We might make this marketing incredibly more efficient. And if that makes a lasting impression on retail energy, I hope it does. But my main focus is how do I have happy customers, right, of our software programs. And that's just doing things that maybe they didn't even think they knew could exist and bring those things to market across the two sides of our marketplace.

Chris Beall (17:09):

So you had to defang yourself? Right in front of God and everybody.

Jason Beck (17:12):

That's right. Yeah. Hey, we're not that wolf, right.

Chris Beall (17:15):

Yeah, lets stay calm.

Jason Beck (17:15):

[crosstalk 00:17:15]. And it's funny because it's not like... We have one company that I would consider them as close to a direct competitor as I can consider them. And then there's a lot of indirect competitors that are trying to approach this, that whole broker of broker route. And there is such a need by the way, for brokers, we serve some of them. Broker of brokers are needed in the marketplace because how do you attract new talents, right. That person that's an accountant, but "Hey, if I have accounting clients, can I sell them electricity?" It's not a far stretch. I'm looking at your bills. I see your bills are high on utilities. Let me help you out with that.

Jason Beck (17:54):

I know somebody write the referral partners. So I think there's a huge need for those folks in the marketplace. I just don't know that they're going to bring together this solution, this trusted architecture of broker, supplier communication. And so that's kind of where we saw the need to be filled. By the way, realize you're giving up on short term earnings. A lot of short-term earnings by doing it this route. And your play is to continue to just build value with your clients versus trying to take a piece of each transaction today.

Chris Beall (18:30):

Yeah. I remember back when we did requisite, we had to do our own schema for all the world's product and service information, because we needed to catalog it in a way that allowed a buyer to have their catalog from multiple suppliers, but be easy to use and consistent to use for every one of their users.

Jason Beck (18:48):

You have a product that [crosstalk 00:18:49] SIC codes out there, right? Probably different [crosstalk 00:18:51] products.

Chris Beall (18:50):

Oh, yeah.

Jason Beck (18:51):

What a challenge.

Chris Beall (18:53):

Yeah. And we came right down to the product category in a way that was understandable and searchable and all of its attributes that were relevant for purchase. And we codified all of that. So it wasn't just SIC codes. It was right down to, this is a one half horsepower compressor motor with a capacitor start. It was that kind of stuff. And when we took that step, we thought we were entering into a world where we would be more trusted as a result. But then the community decided that because we controlled the schema, we were less trusted. And we made the mistake of naming the schema after ourselves, even though we just called it, Russ, everybody knew it was the requisite unified schema. We should've called it UNSPSC2, after the United Nations Services and Products [inaudible 00:19:41] and taking advantage of the fact that their trademarks were weak. Do you have something like that where you're doing the right thing and you know it's the right thing. But the impression that some people have might be [inaudible 00:19:57] they say it's the right thing, but it feels a little bit like a power grab to me.

Jason Beck (20:00):

But then I hope my client who I talked about this yesterday gets to see this podcast and I'm not going to do a direct channel, but I speaking to somebody the other day, great client of ours and he said to me, "Jason, I'm telling you this because we're friends. How many other clients do you think you have that aren't telling you this?" And I said, "Great point. That's a great point." Which is that fear of wait a minute, if you become the marketplace, do you just get rid of me, right? Do you even need brokers? If you guys have all the data, you have all the transfers, can you just go to the end-use customer? And by the way, the answer is, yeah, absolutely. We could. Now again, where I keep coming back to is the fact that you need that expertise in certain, specifically in commodities, things that you can't touch and feel, and the consumer product goods much easier, right?

Jason Beck (20:48):

I always say it's like a travel industry. He brought up the concept of the floral industry, which until this week, I didn't even think about that, right. But you had the same thing that happened in travel to all the florist in the country, right? You had Teleflora and FTD and they basically just started taking a piece of every single transaction. Oh, well, I can give you this and I can give you this. And then all of a sudden, well, I'm just going to go direct to the consumer. What I continue to tell people in retail energy and Cory, I love that. I'm going to steal that [inaudible 00:21:16]. Jason Beck is the pied piper of retail energy, trying to move it forward. And I have so many folks that have been backing me up on this journey because I know we can be stronger together, but it's this aspect of retail energy is incredibly detailed and it's different in every single state.

Jason Beck (21:34):

And it's also different in every single utility. Pennsylvania has six utilities in and out by itself, just that one state and it's different. The components of the energy transaction is different. And so if you're comparing, what your supply contract is going to be on the electricity side or you have to do nominations on the gas side, either you're an expert or you need an expert. And that's kind of where I say to myself, yeah, I understand the fear and I can't do any... I'm not going to like sit on a piece of paper and say, we will never replace... No company is going to literally handcuffed themselves for what the future could hold. But I continue to keep saying, and I really truly believe this, that in certain complex sales, you need an expert. And if you don't have an expert, it's very hard to navigate those sharky waters. Usually those are the people that gets their lunch eaten.

Chris Beall (22:27):

You're an expert, but you need an expert you can trust. So how do you get to the point of trusting that expert. Because expertise, confers power, right? So I'm an expert, I'm very powerful. And I'm very powerful if I'm on your side, that's great. If I'm on my side, you don't know if my side is your side. So it's uncertain and if I'm not on your side at all, I'm against you, then everything's very clear and we fight. So the position that is most dangerous is the one in the middle where it's like, "Well, are you on my side or not?" So how do you get them to believe, to know, not believe incorrectly but to know for certain. You said something really fascinating earlier, you have to remove everything that they would be concerned about, including the appearance, the image, the thought, the nascent sense, incipients. I love that word of becoming that thing that they would be concerned about, right. And how do you do that? What's step zero. What is steps there? Yeah, go look up incipients, it's a heck of a word.

Jason Beck (23:27):

Yeah, I will. I got my vocabulary [inaudible 00:23:30] really good. No, that's awesome. I think that when you are trying to... Is that everything you're 100% right. And I don't think you're ever going to dispel people's beliefs, right? They know if it's still a possibility, it's still a possibility but the way you really do that is you focus on the value that you're providing. And for the service that I am providing you, right? The cost I'm providing you at, and it's today, right? Don't worry about the future. The future is going to hold what it is, but today is that value 5X, 10X, 20X of what I'm costing you. And if you look even at the risk of the future, right, that you're talking about again, although we have nothing that could let us sell to end use customers today.

Jason Beck (24:19):

Again, no broker licenses, no supplier licenses. We just focus on software and technology. Is that a viable risk for you, Mr. Customer? And then they have to make that decision. And that's the tough part. I would say, you got to focus on the value you're providing for that customer. And if today it's just exponentially more than what the cost is or the future risks are. It's an easy decision to make for most customers. I also live in an industry that has not adopted technology incredibly quick and fast. So even still, even though when we say market dominance, right, Chris and I talked about this, we have 120 retail energy brokers on our software here on Enerex, our nearest competitor has between 25 and 30.

Corey Frank (25:02):

Yet already condition the market in your favor and against all these other competitors, current and future. And Chris and I talk about this a lot. I interview him and Chris, right. You know that the most reliable way to establish trust is to get to every relevant person in that market. And you as this pied piper, right, conditioning the market with forwarding, with trust, not with an email, not with a voicemail, not with a mere website, right. We see your website there, but in Jason and what you offer. I think that transference of the bits of what Jason has to say is truly why you're... He's following the playbook, Chris, what you say as far as how to get to a market dominance in this... The riches are in the niches. Well, you definitely are on the way there, Jason.

Jason Beck (25:58):

Well, thanks so much. I really do appreciate that. And when I was talking to Chris about this and I saw both, young blood in what you guys are doing in training up fresh people, right. Fresh out of college and giving them a really strong career in sales. I was one of those... I still don't even like the word sales. I don't know how many sales... That's another quick topic I'd love to transition to is this world of sales, right? Tell me how you guys feel about that in terms of I'm trying... Nobody wants to be sold something, right? So when we talk about this, I've developed trust because I've been in the industry for 15 years and I can prove trust out to you. And then those first few clients, you get them to be referrals for you.

Jason Beck (26:40):

And then you have the eighth person called the first in the 40th person called the 10th person. Right? And that's how you continue to grow is as you have really good relationships, but that's just happened naturally for me, calling, discussing, having those conversations, grabbing that trust, moving them to a transaction. And I get to represent a fantastic team of 70 behind me in this marketplace. But I will candidly still say that I don't like being called a salesperson. It has too many negative connotations. Now by the way, I actually love being called a salesperson when people are like, "Man, you're a great sales person." Thanks. What should work? Was that serious or was it? Right. So I'd love to hear kind of your just thoughts on that, of this dirty word of sales. What's Cory and Chris's take on that dirty word of sales?

Corey Frank (27:29):

Well, if you'd listen to any of the prior 63 64 episodes we've done. Chris certainly has sold his share products from fuller brush, et cetera. So I'll let him, I'll defer to age before beauty here, because he's got such an exceptional background that sales as a term may have a denotation as such, but the connotation of sales over the years, especially how Chris weaves it in and out of how the fuller brush experience has led to him being the innovator that he is at ConnectAndSell. I think really stems from whether you sell him fuller brush or spider repellent in the garage to talking with CEOs of... And private equity firms has to do with the trust factor that you're talking about here so adroitly here, Jason. So Chris, what would you say that Jason's concept of sales as a profession and the denotation that exists out there in the world today?

Chris Beall (28:27):

Well, I don't like sales either. So to me, sales has a bag of tricks, tips and tricks. I gave a talk once at American Association of Inside Sales Professionals event in San Francisco. And it was an unusual talk, my normal talk is about market dominance or about using the voice or about stuff like that. But I decided to tell these inside sales folks that they were the most important people in the economy and here's why. And so I broke it down for them, how the entire economy is built around B2B. And because businesses have to make stuff before consumers can buy them and all government can do is tax. So if you follow the money, you start with the innovations in business that turn into ultimately things that consumers can do. And so here B2B has been transformed from I'll call it, run around knocking on doors to accessing larger markets, which means more of them as remote.

Chris Beall (29:25):

If your solution doesn't have a geographical boundary around it naturally then inside sales, which is really just remote sales done professionally becomes the thing. And therefore, you're now at the beating heart of the entire economy. And perhaps you at the bottleneck of the whole economy, which means, hey, inside salespeople, your skills and your professionalism are the limiting factor in the growth of our economy for everybody who's alive.

Corey Frank (29:53):

Wow.

Chris Beall (29:54):

So take it seriously. So take it seriously, right. So I gave that talk, right? And I came off the stage and I won't say which of the people who was at the AISB because they are dear friends of mine took me aside and said, "Don't ever give a talk like that again, they want tips and tricks." They want tips and tricks. And I actually shuttered a little bit because the last thing in the world I would ever want to do is to use a tip or a trick. Now I know some tricks, here's a trick. If you're ever doing any public speaking, use the word blood and you'll get the audience's entire attention, 100% of the audience for about eight seconds. They will never forget the next things you say, that is a trick. But if you use that trick against your audience, instead of for your audience, you're a charlatan, you're a thief, so-

Corey Frank (30:45):

You [inaudible 00:30:45] every single bit of trust that you thought you were getting, right?

Chris Beall (30:47):

Exactly. So the trick of sales without sales being dirty is to literally think of it as a service business, where you have the luxury of becoming an expert in an area where the buyer doesn't have the luxury of becoming an expert and therefore you have the opportunity to advise them. And that advice given rationally with any kind of reasonable timeframe around their need will lead to a transaction. And then you just have to be willing to transact. The hard part about sales emotionally is that there's this thing called closing and closers are people like me who are willing and I'm telling you this straight up in business, I am willing to sacrifice the relationship as it's developing for the transaction that leads to you getting value or deciding you don't want to move forward.

Chris Beall (31:42):

I'm willing to do that because time is too precious. And that's a hard thing to do with somebody you like. And I think that makes sales very, very difficult because we have to do two emotionally impossible things. One is we have to ambush strangers with an expectation of helping them. And the other is we have to sacrifice relationships with the expectation of getting clarity as to whether it makes sense to transact or not. We don't like either one of those, they're both bad things in our personal life. In our personal life, we approached people that we wanted to have relationships with on an ambush for your own good basis. And then we sacrifice those relationships based on the fact that time is running out and we got to transact or not, then-

Jason Beck (32:24):

What do I [inaudible 00:32:26] right? Yeah.

Chris Beall (32:26):

Exactly. So it's very... Sales is so delicate because we have to only ask first. Well, not only, but we have to ask first, what do they get out of it? And as an expert, can we be an honest broker and be their side? Because it's actually imbalanced. I know more than you do when I'm selling to you. Therefore, I have to take your side in the transaction otherwise, it's imbalanced. That's just simple, that's just a fact, right? And an imbalance transaction [crosstalk 00:32:52].