Wednesday Apr 07, 2021
EP76: I Heart No Shows.
On this week’s episode of Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall continues his conversation with Cherryl Turner, Chief Development Officer of ConnectAndSell’s newest division, Flight School. Together they talk about why it is that of the four sales outcomes — Yes, No, Not me, or Not now — the response that dominates is “Not now.” As Chris explains, “It’s the nature of life.” People are busy. Things come up. Priorities shift. But when a prospect says, “Not now,” what’s a sales rep to do? Push harder and try to squeeze his pitch into the conversation anyway? Or should he relax and bow to the prospect’s protestations that it’s a bad time to talk, by graciously saying, “No problem. I’ll give you a call next week.” It’s an unusual reaction in the high-pressure world of “Make that sale,” but this may be one of the keys to Cherryl’s success in her career: as Chris says, she handles the rigors of cold calling with grace.
It also takes grace to handle the frustration of a no-show. But Chris’s surprising reaction to a cancelled appointment is, “I heart no-shows! They’re my favorite thing in business!” A no-show, he says, makes the relationship more real, because now it’s less perfect. It creates a more-even footing for the next conversation, as well as an opening for a prospect to reveal an insight or two about his business as he explains the why behind his missed appointment. So, when a rep or AE is faced with a no-show and is able to relax and say, “Hey, I understand. I’ll call you back later so we can find a time that will work better for you,” then that improves what Cherryl calls the “trust-o-meter.” She has learned that being persistent with call-backs to “Not now’s” and “No shows” lets her prospects know that she believes in the potential value of what she is selling. And you can believe me when I say, you’re going to want to hear every minute of this week’s episode of Market Dominance Guys, “I Heart No-Shows!”
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Here is the complete transcript from this episode:
Cherryl Turner (02:46):
Well, I think of the way that my husband and I met. It was an ambush conversation. We were sitting next to each other, and it was that other moment, right? If he had pushed, "I've got to know that you want me," right at the very first conversation, I would've said, "There's the road. You can take a long walk on that one." But it's not. (laughing). That just kind of came to my head. I was like, "Oh, we can apply this to any part of our life," right? Which is true. It's the same with cold calls. It's an ambush conversation, and however you want to turn it, if you are a full cycle rep going after a targeted list or if you're trying to crack into a new market or if it's just high-volume cold calling, it applies across the board, because you always have to have initial first conversations, regardless if you're trying to continue to build relationships or if they don't know you from Adam.
So that is critical. So if that relaxation and that confidence, you take that on for them, they feel that over the phone and this exchange of emotion that you're having with this person. It allows them freedom to, "Okay," and they'll want to actually meet with you. It's okay if it takes two or three or four conversations to get there. I honestly believe that meeting will end up being more productive, because they already know you have their best interest at heart.
Chris Beall (04:10):
You were willing to call them again. I mean, face it.
Cherryl Turner (04:10):
Chris Beall (04:15):
People like attention. They like somebody who cares enough about them. That first time that they don't attend the meeting, that could be just a little tiny test that's not ... You think about this. It's like, "Does somebody care enough?" I was watching a couple of mourning doves that were having a discussion this morning about whether they should be making mourning dove babies. He flew up on the roof, and that's kind of like, "Well, are you going to come up here or not?" (laughing).
Cherryl Turner (04:41):
That's awesome. (laughing).
Chris Beall (04:43):
It's such a basic thing. If it's so true for mourning doves, maybe it could be true for the rest of us. But yesterday I was having a nice chat with Pat Lynch, who is running sales enablement for LivePerson at the moment in global sales enablement. He was reminiscing with me about when he had come to connect in Saul's office in Denver and witnessed something. He stayed all day and watched people work, and I left so that I wouldn't inhibit him. He was doing work for CSO Insights, and so he was getting some chief sales officer insights by observing. When I came back from my going away and talking to customers, I asked him, "What'd you see?" He said, "Chris, I don't know how to tell you this. We've got to go in the conference room and shut the door."
We went in and shut the door, and he said, "See that guy right there?" I said, "Yeah, that's Jordan Dufour." He goes, "He's the inventor of 27 Seconds. He's a famous dude." He said, "He did something I've never seen before. A CEO that he got on the phone said, 'Hey, I'm busy. I've got to go into a meeting right now.' Instead of trying to get more out of him, he just said, 'Oh, that's great. Okay. I'll call you next week. I'll give you a shout on Tuesday.' Boom. He just moved on. I went and asked him, 'Why? Why didn't you try to get a meeting with him? You had a CEO.' He said, 'Well, what do you mean? I'll talk to him next week. I have ConnectAndSell.'" That was when Pat said, "I didn't realize that a mechanical change of just being able to talk to 10 times more people would result in an emotional change, where the rep is relaxing." He said, "And I see it around your office. Then it creates a cultural change." That's the one everybody's trying to get to.
Cherryl Turner (06:23):
Chris Beall (06:25):
So here you are, doing it, but I still don't think we've solved this problem. Now, I'm wondering, is it possible that the SDR as a separate role has a built-in problem that people aren't realizing, which is that as an AE, as a full cycle rep, as the chief development officer of ConnectAndSell's Flight School division, you are free to do anything you want? You can set those meetings, and if they don't happen, you don't have any trouble then, right? You just put them in your followup, and then you get on and make some more cold calls. What's the difference? You don't care when you're cold calling.
But if you were two people, one of whom is serving the other with meetings, and it's not a pure relationship, because you can have an easy peer relationship with yourself, right? Then when you set a meeting with your counterpart and it doesn't happen that they get to point the finger at you and say, "You're setting meetings that are not happening. You better improve the show rate." Yet, to improve the show rate, they have to sell after the close, which is the one thing we tell salespeople never to do. Have we built in a problem that leadership has got to address one way or another to make the SDR, BDR thing work, given that they could be converting at 75% like you and Scott Webb? In fact, they're converting at 3%. Maybe it's because they've been told, "Don't convert." Maybe we don't know we're telling them this, but we're saying, "Don't convert unless it's perfect," and nothing's perfect. Is that possible?
Cherryl Turner (07:57):
That's just it, right? We think it's got to be a perfect scenario. It's got to be a perfect fit. What is intriguing is I've been on both sides of that table. In fact, the majority of my career, until I came over to you, was the SDR, right? So as as a consultant and partner of yours, I've worked for PE firms, and I've worked in every industry you can imagine, helping either to build pipeline or help them develop, sales development, or get a process in place, et cetera. Many times, I would have to prove the process, to show them, "This can scale. This does work," et cetera.
In the beginning of my career, well, and even right before I came over, I would support executives or CEOs themselves, and there was a little bit of pushback when I said, "You have to trust the process. They don't show up, then it's better, because you would have crammed something down their throat they weren't ready for. If they're worried about some other meeting they have to go to, they're not listening to you. That's not going to be a productive conversation. If they are squeezed, then you wait until it is a good time." So when you are armed with AI, that is what ConnectAndSell offers, you introduce a new level of efficiency for SDRs and BDRs.
I would also add to that, and this is where a lot of my passion comes from, but that's not taught. It's almost the BDR, SDR role as a pit stop to, "I've got to hurry up and learn this so I can go into marketing or I can go on somewhere else." Now, if that is someone's passion, that's one thing. But I didn't realize that BDR, I could create a career or build a career around this, and I have. It's been an amazing journey, an absolutely amazing journey. It's been constant friction, because that's what we're told. We're told it can't work if we don't have them 100% qualified, and that is never the case. Like you said, Chris, nothing is ever 100%, and the prospect is never going to be 100%. No one is ever an end all to everything, because that's not the way life is.
So if we can take that fear and allow reps to say, "You know what? I had a good conversation with them. I expressed a certain amount of curiosity and trust enough that they will show up eventually. So just let me call them back, AE, sales director. Let me call them back. I'll put them back in my list, and we will get them back on the phone," because guess what? They answered the phone the first time. They will a second or third or fourth or fifth time, right? It shows them, "I am persistent, because I do believe in the potential value of this meeting for you, human being." That is the tone, and that's the approach. They feel that. If sales leadership allows, you aren't changing the conversation, Chris, because this is something that has been kind of bugging me throughout my career, because I always see it. Regardless if it was a new company I was helping, it's like rinse and repeat. You're like, "Oh, here we go again."
That's because you won't know that until you have probably several conversations with them, because that's also a process. They're not going to divulge everything on the first discovery meeting. I hope you have more conversations on this as far as leadership, allowing SDRs to set meetings in that approach. If they do have something like ... Actually, there is nothing else like [inaudible 00:11:31], so there is ConnectAndSell. That's it, because it is different than ... We're not a dialer. It is unlike anything else.
What I love about Flight School is when you pair the two, the coaching with what Flight School does with ConnectAndSell, you're unstoppable, that relaxation, and you're able to focus on, "Hey, change this a little bit, and you'll see an uptick in interest." In fact, that's what Tony Crawford did to me the first time I was on. He was like, "Hey, I noticed ... Have you tried this? Here's this other point." I was like, "No, I hadn't even realized." He was like, "Hey, try this." I was like, "Okay," and it changed. It was awesome.
Chris Beall (12:09):
It's amazing, isn't it? It's amazing how the nuances of the conversation, the nuances of our mindset have profound effects on results. Now here's this new one I'll call it. I'll call it I heart no-shows.
Cherryl Turner (12:24):
Chris Beall (12:26):
Right? I want the title of this episode to be I Heart No-Shows, because when you come right down to it, I mean, I do heart no-shows. I love them. I think I might've told this story on this show before, where I was walking down the street with my fiance, and she's a much bigger deal in sales than I am. So I get on with somebody from a big hotel chain, and we have a scheduled meeting with three people from that company. That's a nice thing for ConnectAndSell, And I still sell. I suppose people probably know this, but we finance our company by selling. I realize it's a bizarre notion in Silicon Valley, but that's how we do it. We kind of do it by having the folks at the top sell without taking commissions, because if I took a commission, by the way, I'd act just like everybody else. I'd want every deal. So I just can relax, no commission, just sell.
But anyways, a pretty important-sounding meeting. I got on with Marjorie, who was the person who was from the other side who was going to put this together. She said, "Oh, Chris, I'm so sorry. Both of the other participants just had something come up." I said, "Fantastic. I'll shoot you an email, and we can get something else on the books when it's convenient for all three of you. Thanks so much for letting me know right now. We would have figured it out eventually, but I really, really appreciate it."
She kind of changed her tone and said, "Oh, well, do you want to talk a little bit right now?" I said, "We could, but I really think this is something where we should all explore together. So let's just get something where all three of us are on. That'll be great." I hung up, and Helen turns to me. She says, "Oh, a no-show. That must have been disappointing." I said, "Are you kidding? It's my favorite thing in business," not just in sales. It is my very, very favorite thing in business, is a no-show, because in a funny way, it just makes the relationship more real, because it's less perfect.
Cherryl Turner (14:31):
What's interesting is when you approach that, Chris, what you just said, some people call that ... I was thinking through this, actually, over the last week or so. I was like, "What is it about Scott? What is it?" James Johnson's also very good at this, listening to him. I don't want to get in trouble with me dropping his name in this, but what I love about it, that it's a mindset of abundance or scarcity, and I think that's where the problem is with senior leadership in sales. What is sad is I think many could-be awesome sales potentials are lost because they think, "If this is the grind I have to consistently go through, why bother?"
I was up against a lot. I had managers that didn't leave until ... Oh my gosh. I have stories beyond stories. But what I held true to was there is something here. So gratefully, I had kind of the personality to stick through it and to be open to adjusting and learning and pivoting. I have been nothing but blessed with that, but it's consistent friction of this mindset that leadership tends to have that if it's not qualified, doesn't count. Then that puts so much pressure on the rep, and you don't find out the talent you have because of that mindset. Organic growth goes out the window. You could have just lost probably the best thing that ever happened to your sales department if we continue to maintain this attitude, and I hope this does end up changing the conversation in the industry, because it is important. It's still constantly out there, right?
You see it on LinkedIn. You see it everywhere, but it really changes the trajectory of the conversation and the relationship, and I would dare say that it improves the trust-o-meter I mean tenfold, if not more, when the rep is able to relax and say, "It will fall into a time when it does work for them," because companies are constantly in and out of looking for something, right? "This didn't work. There's got to be a better way." Well, that's why you're calling them, right? They don't know.
What is interesting is a lot of people, especially prospects, come to the table thinking the meeting is going to be about one thing, right? They've already categorized you prematurely. But what I love is, I mean, the meetings we've had with the Flight ... "This is nothing like what I thought it'd be." That's fantastic. I'm glad that that's the case, right? It wasn't a death by PowerPoint. In fact, I had to like, "Oh, do you have something to show?" I was like, "No, we're just going to talk. I just want to find out what you're doing, what's important to you and important to continue talking. We will." She said, "Oh, okay." Then what's crazy is this isn't rocket science. We have been conditioned to not act like humans in sales, especially in business development.
Cherryl Turner (19:11):
I would hope that there's more women out there also, Chris, as a woman, right? I hope there's more out, because I think we also have a certain touch that brings, I think, a refreshing approach to sales also. Anyway, it really is fascinating, to be honest. So with this approach that we were talking about, Chris, it's kind of an excavator. You put the claw in the ground. You goop it up, and you put it through the hopper, right? Whatever crunches through. If they show up, great. If they don't, that's all right. You put it back in the hopper, and eventually, it will stick. Eventually, it will run into a time that's good for them. That's what allows a rep to relax.
Chris Beall (19:47):
Yeah, and what I love about that analogy is the alternative is ... This is, I think, the modern sales stack. We arm the reps with all this tools and all this technology.
Cherryl Turner (19:59):
Oh, I know.
Chris Beall (19:59):
Then when they get up there to the point where they're going to have that big claw come down and take a scoop, they take the scoop, and then they shut the machine off and get their gold pan out. They go through, swirling and looking for a nugget and looking for a nugget. Sure enough, only 3% are nuggets, and the rest of it's bad. It's just ore. That's the nature of the beast, whereas they could have just said, "Look, I don't know what might be right or wrong. This is the only ore we've got right now, so I'm going to scoop it up. I'm going to put it in the crusher. I'm going to let it go through its process, and whatever comes out the other end, that's great. Whatever doesn't, I'm going to process it again"-
Cherryl Turner (20:40):
Chris Beall (20:41):
... "because I've got this crusher here, and it can just crush," right? When I hear people talk about crushing their number, I think, "Well, I don't think you're crushing your number. I think you're panning for the occasional little gold nugget, hoping that you can run with it over to somebody and say, 'I got this gold nugget here,'" whereas it's not the nuggets that make the business. It's what's in the ore overall and your ability to process it. So it's so interesting to me that you talk about being human. In a way, it's being human that lets us make a sales machine.
Cherryl Turner (21:18):
Yeah. It really is mind-blowing. I mean, it's not and it is at the same time, right? You're like ... (laughing).
Chris Beall (21:19):
(laughing). It's totally unsurprising and totally mind-blowing.
Cherryl Turner (21:26):
Right. It's crazy how much we complicate this, right? We do. But why? What I love about this mindset of abundance with just let whatever falls through fall through, that is a mindset of abundance. That is belief, going back to the Forbes podcast, right? It is true when he said it's this inner belief that, "You know what? Just let it fall where it falls." Whatever falls off, just put it back in, and it will get polished enough to where it will be the right time. It will stick, and you'll have a great conversation when that happens. Yes. It really is amazing.
Chris Beall (22:06):
Yeah. We say sales conversations have four outcomes, yes, no, not me, not now. We say not now dominates because of the nature of life. When we look at we're selling a meeting, not now should dominate that also. So if not now dominates, then let's float the question of when, rather than insisting that when be nailed down, and then let's provide ourselves with something else to do whenever there's a meeting that is a no-show. I think that might be the other magic of ConnectAndSell. So a meeting is a no-show, I know you always do the same thing. Well, you don't do one thing. You don't complain. You do another thing. You fire up your followup list, and you have that person on it and other people. You talk to them or whoever, and you make good use of that time.
So I think the other thing is in the abundant sense, people who are selling, they feel like, "I set aside time for the meeting, and now it's a no-show." Well, first of all, they probably over-researched for it. So for that 15-minute meeting, they probably researched 30 minutes, and then when the meeting doesn't happen, it's like, "Oh, I wasted that research, because I won't remember it." Well, in that case, maybe just don't do the research, and be prepared to hold an honest discovery conversation and let somebody tell you what they know.
Chris Beall (23:26):
But then the other part is and then when the no-show is a no-show, how can you heart no-shows if you don't have anything to do when they no-show and you want to be efficient? Well, the answer is just push the button and talk to somebody else. You are the constrained resource. You are always the constrained resource. So just go ahead to the resource unconstrainer, which is this thing called ConnectAndSell, and push the button and have some more conversations, because they're moving the ball forward, too, somehow. You just don't know exactly where or when.
Cherryl Turner (23:58):
I mean, thinking over, just listening to your podcast with you and Corey and some of the brilliant minds you've had on so far, you always talk about market dominance, right? So this idea of I heart no-shows, that is what enables also the undercurrent of what helps you dominate your market, because if you're not in consistent motion, that's what allows the consistent motion, right? When you require reps to, "You've got to make sure it's way past the line before you can call it qualified or you can count this meeting," or whatever, mentally, it is not for the faint of heart, right? Cold calling never has been. But when you introduce a mindset of abundance and allow it to you, "You know what? Did well, do your best, it will fall into when it's time that's good for them."
That is the undercurrent that enables market dominance, is that coupled, right, with ConnectAndSell and Flight School, because you're able to adjust and pivot in real time and become better as a human being, right? Talking to another human being and making those connections, improving people's lives, right? With what you do offer. There's a lot of awesome that's out there in the market. We just get in our own way, because we feel like it's got to look a certain way or the conversation has to be exactly a certain way. That's not the case.
Chris Beall (25:30):
Oddly enough, there's the other great irony, right? You need a great script in order to relax enough to be a human.
Cherryl Turner (25:37):
Chris Beall (25:39):
Isn't that funny? I mean, some people equate scripts with being a robot. I take the opposite point of view, which is the script liberates you to be yourself.
Cherryl Turner (25:48):
Yes. I still have mine. Just like Matt Forbes was saying, "Oh, my wife laughs at me," my husband does, too. So it's right there, and when I'm at the park with my kid, I have it with me. It does liberate you. It takes it to a whole new level. You feel it as a rep, and that's what fuels you, because you begin. It just takes you to a whole new realm, I would say. It really is an awesome place to be when you can get to that point.
Chris Beall (26:16):
Yeah, and the script, I think, is to the rep. I've always said the script is the surfboard and the rep's voice is the surfer. But there's another analogy, which is the script is the checklist for the pilot. Without the checklist, you'd be one worried pilot, especially if you had people onboard that airplane, including yourself. So the checklist doesn't turn the pilot into a robot. It frees the pilot up to do the human stuff that's really important, which might include reassuring the passengers that the airplane does go up and fly and come down, Flight School style, and it comes down in a controlled way and you can handle the turbulence and all that. But it's also like if you want to bring your complete self to a situation, you need to not be inventing your response to the known parts of the situation as you go along. That's kind of wild, right? It'd be kind of like saying, "Here's how I drive my car. I get in, and I have no idea what I do next, because I just want to be so expressive."
Cherryl Turner (27:15):
Chris Beall (27:15):
But, I mean, it doesn't make any sense. It's an order of operations. It's a script. I get in. I close the door. I put on my seatbelt. I put the key in ... This car that I drive, you still put a key in a slot. I know for a lot of people, this is odd. It's a Subaru that can hold 24 cases of wine, so it's really, really a good car. Check the handbrake, and you've done your walk-around. Make sure there's no children behind the car, or make sure you live in a place where there aren't any. If you do these things, you don't just go, "Oh, I just don't feel like a very human driver, because I do things in a certain order and I know about it in advance." It's just allowing you to take the predictable parts and turn those into something that you don't have to worry about.
I think that's what a script does, is it reduces our worry level about what we're going to say next and lets us then respond appropriately in tone of voice, in cadence, and in responding. When somebody says, "Well, Cherryl, tell me more," you need to be in a pretty special place to say, "We've learned the hard way that an ambush conversation like this isn't a fair setting to talk about something this important. I'm a morning person. Are you? How's your Wednesday?" That takes real stance, right? The surfboard has just been chomped on by the shark, and you've got to have some real balance to do something about that, other than just fall in the water and enjoy your relationship with the shark.
Cherryl Turner (28:49):
Splashing all around, trying to ... (laughing). Yeah.
Chris Beall (28:51):
Yeah, which tends to be what happens. So, well, I tell you what. I have a funny feeling about this episode. I think you've said nine things during this episode. Each one of the nine things could be a chapter in a book on how to handle the rigors and handle them with grace that come with cold calling, the most important thing that we do in business. I know some people are saying still cold calling shouldn't exist, right? Well, in a competitive world, having first conversations that build trust is probably going to be around for a while, because competitively, it's superior to waiting. It's the time game, just played the other way around. So I just want to thank you for coming on. I know that this is not your thing. I can tell you're fabulous. You have no idea how good you really are. So it's just [crosstalk 00:29:46].
Cherryl Turner (29:45):
Oh, thanks, Chris. I would like to add one more thing, Chris. I've been brainstorming in real time. You asked what made the difference, right? I have been fortunate enough to have leadership, senior leadership, mostly CEOs, that have believed in me enough to allow me to do my thing when it came to building pipeline. That built my confidence, and when I had a CEO that was in Belgium and he ran a company that he built from the ground up, digital asset management, and I was the first introduction of outbound sales development, completely foreign to this company. The way that he led, he taught belief in what they sold. I've been fortunate enough that the CEO that brought me on for this company also ran his leadership that way, and I've learned from you the same.
So I've been fortunate enough to rally around like-minded mindset of abundance, right, leadership that taught that way. When leadership begins to think that way and believe in their SDRs, we will begin to see a shift in market dominance as we know it. It really is. So I feel nothing but blessed with the networks, the connections I've made throughout my career. Just love and enjoy, soak everything in in learning from them, right? They all have something to offer. That really is something. So I think when we can allow ourselves to be taught and to teach and believe in each other within sales organizations, we can begin to relax and begin to dominate our markets. It will make a difference.
Chris Beall (31:29):
I love it. So Cherryl, I want people to know how to get a hold of you, both selfishly, because you're selling something that I hold near and dear to my heart, which is Flight School. I actually think Flight School is the most transformative product I've ever been associated with in a fairly long career of transformative products. I thought ConnectAndSell was special. I still do. I thought the Breakthrough Script was special as a form of technology. You're one of the very first people ever to have heard it in the wild. You were exposed to the wild-type virus called the Breakthrough Script years ago. In fact, I was with you in one place in Utah when James Townson and team unleashed the Breakthrough Script somewhere else and got a 15 times improvement in conversation or meetings per day. But I actually think Flight School is maybe more special than anything.
Admittedly, as you and I both know, it rests on ConnectAndSell, and it rests most easily on the Breakthrough Script. That's not required, but it's something that just kind of makes it easier. Breakthrough Script is plenty good enough to run a Flight School, I guess is how I would put it.
But if folks want to get a hold of you, I can tell them how to do that. Cherryl, C-H-E-R-R-Y-L. See the two R's? That's because she's special. 40 miles south of here, we'd be rolling those R's, and we'd call you Cherryl. Cherryl Turner, T-U-R-N-E-R, because she will turn your entire world around. If you want to explore Flight School, she'll talk to you, even if you're a smaller company, but she might pass you off to somebody else. Her job is to actually help the biggest companies in the world embrace something that's a little bit hard because of change management, which is going 10 times faster and being 10 times more effective.
But if somebody wants to experience 100X, 100X doesn't come along every day of the week, and it'll sound like something else entirely. You'll come to the meeting, and you'll say, "This isn't what I expected," just like Cheryl said, but reach out to her, [email protected] I'm sure on LinkedIn, she's find-able also. Failing all that, I think people watching this know how to get ahold of me. I'm Chris Beall, and I'm just really tickled to be hosting Market Dominance Guys today with Cherryl Turner. Thanks so much, Cherryl.
Cherryl Turner (33:56):
Thank you, Chris. It's an honor. Appreciate it.
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