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Enslaved by Preconceptions? Shoshin Can Set You Free!

September 23, 2020

Enslaved by Preconceptions? Shoshin Can Set You Free!

Can your prospects smell your “commission breath”? Is your eagerness to set the appointment or reach for the deal keeping you from gleaning the information you need from your conversations with prospects?

There is a danger that comes with expertise. When you are a true beginner, your mind is empty and open. You are willing to learn and consider all pieces of information. As you develop expertise, however, your mind naturally becomes more closed. As a salesperson, you might have a preconceived notion that you know where a cold call is heading. Rejectionville again! And this makes you less open to discovering new information, less likely to hear your prospect’s confession about his business or job or a problem you might solve. Your expectations are not immediately met, and you get that sense of doom that this call is a waste of your time. What can save you from that out-on-a-ledge, sales-related fear of impending doom? Shoshin, a Zen Buddhism concept that means “beginner’s mind.” Chris, Corey, and Jake Housdon discuss how employing the curiosity mindset of Shoshin (“I know nothing. Tell me about your experience.”) allows you to take ahold of your emotions, lead your prospect back into having a conversation, and put you back on the road to discovery.

About Our Guest
Jake Housdon is CEO and co-founder of SDR League, the world's first esports league for salespeople.

The complete transcript of this episode is below:

Announcer 2 (00:27):

You're listening to the Market Dominance Guys with your host, Chris Beall of Connect and Sell and Corey Frank of Uncommon Pro. Can your prospect smell your commission breath? Is your eagerness to set the appointment or reach for the deal keeping you from gleaning the information you need from your conversations with prospects? There's a danger that comes with expertise. When you're a true beginner, your mind is empty and open. You're willing to consider all pieces of information. As you develop expertise, however, your mind naturally becomes more closed. As a salesperson, you might have a preconceived notion that you know where a cold call is heading. Rejectionville again. And this makes you less open to discovering new information, less likely to hear your prospect's confession about his business or job or a problem you might be able to solve. Your expectations are not immediately met. And you get that sense of doom that this call is a waste of your time.

What can save you from that out on a ledge sales-related fear of impending doom? Shoshin, a Zen Buddhism concept that means beginner's mind. Chris, Corey, and Jake Housdon discuss how employing the curiosity mindset of Shoshin, which means, "I know nothing, tell me about your experience." Allows you to take a hold of your emotions, lead your prospect back into having a conversation and put you back on the road to discovery, join Corey and Chris and their guest today. Jake Housdon, who's back for a second episode. He's the CEO and co-founder of SDR League. The world's first eSports league for salespeople. So let's get going with Corey, Chris, and Jake. Take it away, guys.

Chris Beall (02:09):

Yeah, Jeb Blount always... He always says that the biggest problem that we all have in sales, and he wrote a whole book about it, Sales EQ, is that we don't understand our own emotions and therefore have ways of... I'll call it managing, but I don't mean it in a controlling kind of sense. The ability to remain detached while executing precisely and with energy. And it's a tricky business in everything, though. I mean, I'm an old rock climber mountaineer. And how can you be detached, especially doing some of the games that I used to do, which did not involve a rope. I'm not saying I'm a smart person, right? I'm just telling you the truth. Corey, you know the Praying Monk, right?

Corey Frank (02:51):


Chris Beall (02:51):

On Camel's Head, on Camelback Mountain. And I remember having this experience once at about 6:30 in the morning where I was free soloing. A very easy climb. I had to go up to the top of the Praying Monk, but it's got a lot of exposure. Exposure means how far you fall before you hit. And the exposure on that climb, it looks like you're going to fall into somebody's swimming pool, about 600 feet below you on the first move. So you come out of this little cave, tunnel, and you traverse right onto the face, and then you kind of get yourself situated, and it's a really easy climb. It's really easy. It's just a long ways down. And to do it, unroped at dawn, when the sun is just taking up as a kind of lonely and kind of special feeling, right? So I was up there doing that one Saturday morning, and I get up about halfway up the climb, and there's a little old mudstone flake there. That's got a hole in it, and you can move it with your finger.

You can actually pull on it, and it'll wiggle, and you're going to have to actually use it, not use it at the same time. So it's a very delicate sort of operation. And suddenly, I hear a noise. Totally unexpected noise, an industrial noise, and it's getting louder and louder and louder. What did I need to do? It's just like what happens when you are afraid that this person that you're talking with in a discovery conversation isn't the right customer. They're almost right, but. Nah, they're not going to go with us, right? What do you do? How do you not panic?

So that was the skill that, I was given the good fortune of learning, through a game that is too stupid to play it. Nobody should play it, which is this particular thing. And by the way, the way the story ends is fine. Obviously, I'm reasonably with us, or this is some real high-tech talk about ghosting. They talked about ghosting people now. We could be ghosting me right now. But I finally get enough courage, and I calmed down, and I get enough courage and turn my head, and there's the Goodyear Blimp, Colombia, at eye level about a hundred feet away. It's a bunch of people having a breakfast tour looking at "Look, human flies." Right? So my hands are sweating right now, by the way, as I try to emotionally detach from that little piece of PTSD.

Corey Frank (04:52):

But you know, Chris, what I think you've outlined there is the perfect archetype example of what we have as the four legs of that barstool, where you had that fear. Should I do this free solo on the Praying Monk? And then you had to cross that bridge going from fear to trust. I trust that I'm competent enough to get there. And then I'm curious enough if this foothold can maybe take me up a different pathway or a different trench here. And then finally, once you have that curiosity, you had to commit, and some folks won't get past that fear, but you've got all the way to all four of the little legs of that barstool there. In that one story certainly.

Chris Beall (05:32):

Yeah. Commit and take action because it's real easy to stand there forever, but that doesn't get the job done either way. But I think sales has that level of emotion associated with it. And Jeb's book, Objections, in which he tells us that our emotional reaction to an objection is that it's a rejection. And that our fear of rejection is worse than our fear of death. We react in sales situations in ways that are more compelling emotionally than a free solo. I'll be kind to the rest of them. This was not true of me. A free solo artist is actually experiencing a less compelling emotion, which is merely the fear of falling to their death. Whereas the salesperson, in discovery and into cold calls, especially, faces the fear of rejection over and over and over. And each objection is mapped onto a rejection.

And Jeb teaches us a word that he uses, which is the ledge, right? It comes right out of climbing. He's not even a climber. He's a horseman. They don't even have ledges. They have saddles, right? But he used the correct term, which is a ledge. You go to your ledge. Mine, when you hang out with me, you'll know what my ledge and in short order.

So fires are in Oregon. I can't drive from Reno, where I've got all this work going on with my house and moving and all that back to Washington because Oregon's on fire. What did I say when I was talking to Helen about it? Fantastic. As soon as I found out, that's what I said. Fantastic. Because that's my ledge. You tell me that "I don't know Chris, our business doesn't work like that." Fantastic. And it calms me down. It's my ledge. Everybody needs one, no matter how experienced you are, no matter how many times you've been up that route. Something funny that could... Your Blimp Columbia could sneak up on you, and you need to look at it and say, "Fantastic." And then go to your curiosity.

Jake Housdon (07:22):

A 100 Percent.

Chris Beall (07:23):

So where do you go from your ledge? Always go to your curiosity. It's the safest place in the conversation for you.

Jake Housdon (07:28):

That makes a lot of sense. And it reminds me of some neuroscience work that was done by this guy Moe something? He used to be the head of Google X, and then his son passed away, and it was devastating. And he took a sabbatical to try to understand from an engineer's perspective how he could create happiness and solving for happiness. He went on this mission, and Google let him do it and everything. And one of the things he figured out is that he said happiness is, as far as he can tell, the feeling of having your expectations met. But he said that that doesn't mean that the solution is to set low expectations for yourself. It's what do you do when your expectations are not met. Anyway, what he does practically, what he prescribes to people, is that what goes on is when your expectations aren't met the middle of your brain, where there's incessant thinking, that part starts to really light up and do all kinds of bad things.

And that's where you get into the downward spiral of emotion. Imagine you missed a bus. And then you're like, "Oh, I missed the bus." And then you're like, "No, now I'm going to be late for that thing. And then that meeting, it's not going to go well, and this, and I'm not going to make my quota, and I'm not going to..." Suddenly the world is upside down, and the best way he said to practically overcome that. And maybe the ledge just reminded me of this, but it's to shift your thinking towards, "Okay, well, what would I do next time to prevent that from happening?" And the reason for that is it moves the neural activity from the middle of your brain to a different part, so it literally stops that downward spiral. So that reminds me of how you are saying to go to curiosity right away, meant to kind of create it with a positive feeling and then go curious, because saying, how would I stop this from happening again? It's kind of a curiosity type of function. So, that certainly resonates deeply with me there.

Corey Frank (09:09):

In essence, Jake, it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing with the SDR League. So it'd be a good segue way into this veneer that you're putting on top of the midbrain, where there's potential rejection, and dejection, and disappointment, and struggle in that midbrain. Where I'm going to perseverate over an issue or a challenge or my numbers. And now I go more into the neocortex or even the opposite end, even more to the primitive side of the brain, which is a little bit more competitive, a little bit more fun, a little bit more [Crosstalk 00:09:40]. And let's talk a little bit about that. Was that part of the intent? Is how do you kind of put this velvet rope around what our profession really is and kind of come at it from a different angle.

Jake Housdon (09:50):

Exactly. And I think to touch on your point there. All those things, it's all part of the game at the end of the day. And that's what us seasoned folks, who have done this for a while, would say, right? We get punched in the nose. We get rejected, kicked in the teeth, as Ryan likes to say. It's all part of the game. We learned to love that because it means that we're one step closer to the great thing that we want happening. Right? So I think that isn't necessarily the inspiration for creating the entire thing. But that's something that's definitely at play is that learn to love the game, learn to love the process itself, learn to love the L, not just the W. That's how you can get yourself to be formidably defending against the downward spiral and negative emotion. That's when you're like, "Fantastic!" As Chris said. When he can't drive to where he wants to go, right?

So from what I've seen in terms of hiring as well, let's just say at the top of the funnel, on the sales development side, I love people who love the game. If you love the game, if you're passionate about the game, that's great. We're going to be able to figure this thing out here. So, yeah, I think that's a huge part of it. We also want to really elevate our profession, and sports is, think of children watching athletes and becoming inspired and all of those things. I think that none of this stuff is public-facing right now. It all takes place in the best orgs at Connect And Sell, among the team talking to each other at Youngblood Works, that culture exists, but it can't be shown to people that aren't a part of it necessarily either. So that's something near and dear to my heart as well.

Chris Beall (11:20):

Yeah. I love what you're doing with SDR League. It's a crazy idea. Mark Cuban is the big exponent of eSports, and I'm going to talk to him about what you guys are doing because he's going to love this. I mean, the idea of making an eSport, you got to get it up and running because Mark's not a speculative guy, but it's really something. What could be a better competitive activity than cold calling?

Jake Housdon (11:41):

That's it. Yeah. A hundred percent Chris and not to interrupt you there, finish your thought, just to interject. I see eSports becomes bSports, right? That's the new category that we're ushering in here. It's business as a sport, and absolutely to your point sales development, top of the funnel is the most high adrenaline, fun, fast-paced, action-packed stuff to watch, so.

Chris Beall (12:02):

People like to watch sports that involve violent collisions between talented human beings. In this case, there's a bunch of them. I mean, it's like, there's the two competitors there's what's happens on the call, every cold call's a train wreck. What a fabulous, fabulous idea. I love what Ryan is doing, Ryan right. Sort is out there on Twitch right now. Twitch is the video gamers' eSports channel. He has a channel out there. The channel has grown crazy already. And I just can't imagine a cooler thing than that. And it is true, Corey, by the way, you go to both the more primitive part of the brain, but also you go to a very cerebral, very cortex part of the brain and very neocortex part, right? I mean, the smartest people I've ever known in sport are left tackles, played football. Yeah. Those are by far the smartest people are so smart- [crosstalk 00:12:48].

Corey Frank (12:47):

Scores are off the charts. Exactly right.

Chris Beall (12:49):

Yeah. And they're into technique. And at a level of nuance and detail into the biomechanics. And then into the psychology, there's a guessing game going on. There's all this stuff happening in the mind. This person's brand is attached to a big body. You don't get to play left tackle if you're really small, I think. Because all the quarterbacks end up dead at that point, but it's a fascinating thing. And I really think that one of the things we're seeing is that thinking and executing in real-time, now, have become the keys to success. Business used to be built around planning. You'd have this annual plan. Now I've always rejected the annual plan. I always thought the annual plan was an idiot's exercise. Why would the fact that the earth shows up relative to the distance of stars, and approximately the same alignment as some time it did before? Why would that be the natural unit of planning?

We're not farming. We don't have seasons that are meaningful in our business in that sense. Not very many of them anyway. We'd make them up. "Oh my God. Q4, Q4, Q4. Let's close all the deals. What? That's just nuttiness. When you think about it, businesses need stuff all the time. And we're going to plan our investment, our innovation investment out through the whole year. Well, I've got about six weeks of visibility into innovation investments that connect itself. And I remember when I joined the company, I was VP of Products. And I joined five minutes after meeting a founder, Shawn McLaren. And I just told him I was working for him. And he said, "Well, you know, what if I'm not hiring?" And I still "Look, Sean, it's a free country. I can work for whomever I want, and that's entirely up to you if you decide to pay me. I highly recommend you do because it stabilizes the employer-employee relationship, but do what you want. It's up to you. I'm committing, and you can have your way with me if you want."

So first day on the job. I go talk to the engineers, then they asked me, "So you're the product guy, how do you do roadmap?" I said, "Road map? I don't do road map." Whoa. I grew three heads. I started vomiting blood, as far as they were concerned, flying around the room with wings. It's like, "Who is this creature? A product guy who doesn't do road map." That's like a racehorse with no legs. Doesn't make any sense. And the fact is, a deep road map is an assertion of knowledge that you do not confidently have. And it's an expression of your lack of curiosity. You're saying, "I don't care. I don't care what we learn."

Jake Housdon (15:10):


Corey Frank (15:10):

It's the business equivalent of free-soloing then, is what you're doing?

Chris Beall (15:14):

Yeah. And you got to be good or else you die.

Corey Frank (15:17):


Chris Beall (15:18):

You got to be good, anyway. So what?

Jake Housdon (15:20):

That also, Chris, then is something that stops everyone from being able to follow the constraints so closely because they lay out this annual plan, and then they get a bunch of important eyeballs at the board level on it and everything else. And then it just becomes, "Did you do the plan really?" Not about anything else, really, right?

Chris Beall (15:38):

Why was it annual? Why was this annual? Well, we only have four board meetings a year. Oh, okay. So the board meeting's purpose is to serve for the company, or is there some other purpose that we should be trying to detect here? Why don't we have a quarterly plan? Why don't we have a one-month plan? It's been a bother to me for a long time, and I don't do it. It's the same reason I don't hold meetings, by the way. I think standing meetings, fixed meetings on the calendar are exactly the same thing. They're an expression of your lack of interest in the future.

Jake Housdon (16:07):

Very interesting.

Corey Frank (16:08):

Well, I like the concept certainly, and Chrisy and I have spoken about compensation and how these antiquated compensation plans, unfortunately, continue to drive the behavioral of end of month, end of quarter, end of year, end bonuses and stifles that curiosity, I'm curious in the first week or two of a quarter, but, then when this impending doom of a quota creeps up on me, that I have this sort of Damocles staring at me at the end of a quarter, then I'd better stifle that curiosity and go more towards volume. And I don't have time to ask the type of discovery I need to be to be curious. Because I just need to find out if you're going to buy or not, Chris. And how compensation plans play a part in that and that perhaps even the type of people we're hiring and indoctrinate and like a virus spread from one sales organization to another to another.

So it's as almost as if we have to have a Lord of the Flies-type of Island situation, where people who are pristine, virgin, pure in the black art of quota creation, who have never succumbed to an ISPC or a board meeting or account review where they feel pressured to hit a quota at the month, corresponding to their commission and just let them discover, let them be curious and to see if there's a different type of currency that can be created that is inconsistent with kind of the forms we're having today.

Chris Beall (17:31):

I think we came up with a partial cure. And the partial cure it would be to have a new role, which is discoverer.

Jake Housdon (17:40):

I was just thinking that, discoverer.

Chris Beall (17:43):

And the discoverer role can be comped as the discoverer role should be comped, which is what did we learn? And if the main thing we were to try to learn is the business truth of the other person and their beliefs. And then we were to say, "Here's the roadmap that we're hoping for in this relationship. We think the timing is going to work like this, but we think their belief, we hope evolve, that's the next step." Next steps being actions are ridiculous sales. The next step that counts is if that person can believe something new, people buy because of what they believe. They don't buy because you took an action. You can take actions all day long, do nothing. But when they believe it, whether you took an action or not, they believe the next thing. You've made progress.

So if we were to put together with our discoverer a belief map, it says, where are we trying to go belief wise. And a business map. Which is what's the business truth that they're living in internally and externally, and then comp that correctly. Then our AEs could be commissioned for being the order takers that they love have to be. I mean, consultants, sorry. I didn't mean order takers. I meant trusted advisors. Actually, they could be trusted advisors that they would be fine with that. They're just being trusted later in the process because getting to transaction itself is hard. Transacting is the problem with closing emotionally, is your emotional stance that you need to have is, "I am willing to sacrifice this relationship for the deal." That's actually what you have to do to be a closer. This is why sales is so hard is you build relationships, and you're willing to sacrifice them for the deal because your time is essentially all you got, and you can't be spending your time on stuff that isn't going to turn into a deal.

Chris Beall (20:13):

But that's not to say as organizations, we couldn't have a role whose job is to learn the truth, and we could build our forecasts off the truth rather than building our forecast off of this somebody who'd need to say, "Well, I can backfill that with this other one." How many times have you heard that Corey, "Oh yeah, well, that one's going to slip, but I can backfill up by pulling this other one in." And if you could pull either one in, why didn't you pull it in?

Corey Frank (20:13):

That's right, yeah.

Jake Housdon (20:36):

It takes me to a place of thinking about just the puzzle of motivation, though. And I do think that discoverer would be fantastic. But then, if we start to try to measure the truth, that's where we get into all kinds of issues. It's like, how do we truly measure that truth? And if we compensate based on finding the truth. Then we get into all the same wrong behaviors at the discoverer level.

It's almost as if they need to be non-variable in terms of their comp. We're all alert. There's a lot of salespeople that are allergic to that thought. But I think there's those studies out there. I can't remember the exact name, but it's the one where people were given financial incentives and asked to do a task where they had to get this candle to stick to the wall with thumbtacks and a little case, a match case. And as they escalated the amount of money they gave people, they got worse and worse at that task because it caused... And you guys seem to know a lot about how the brain works. So feel free to fill in which parts were going on, but it caused the wrong parts to sort of supersede the others. So I think the discoverer would have to be almost just paid for their job

Chris Beall (21:37):

And measured objectively by somebody else, not themselves. This is another bizarre notion that we have in sales that the measurer and the actor are the same person. You mentioned doing that in manufacturing, but let's not actually measure what the machine is doing and check it just to see if it's calibrated. Let's just assume that it's good and then use its output as the measurement. That'd be nutty. We'd never be able to build anything.

Corey Frank (22:00):

Yeah. Well, I think either. As Jake, I think, as you had said, at the outset of this conversation, because we're dealing with variable, such as a human being who uses three parts of their brain, who is in a profession that has cascaded for living on the edge of society, bleeding people dry, right? You put all these conflating elements together, and certainly, you have too many variables in a system. As Chris had said many times in this podcast. So how is a new SDR or a new sales rep, or you let alone a new Sales Manager VP who, is thrust into an opportunity and environment where they have one quarter at the average tenure of a VP is what a 180 days, so to speak, right? It's maybe a year before they start feeling that heat. And they're thrust in that environment where there's way too many variables in a system.

And there is no go-to to have each of these variables weighed from a different atomic weight perspective to say, "What should I focus on?" And so invariably, I go to the old standbys, the old reliables, which is how many conversations, not that I'm having, but how big is my pipeline and how many demos have I done? And I think that lends itself to part of this confusion, this mass chaos, why you see one sales organization selling relatively the same type of product to the same type of TAM, doing completely different results than another sales organization, competing sales organization with the same type of TAM and relatively the same type of products.

Jake Housdon (23:23):

And I had heard you guys talk about Mr. Monkey and that whole idea. And when you depict it like that, Corey, it sounds like it's pretty easy for people to just default to being Mr. Monkey because there's so much chaos to navigate through and everything, right? It's this meta-thinking is required above everything, and it's really missing. And it's, I guess, the role of leadership to ensure that it's part of the culture. And we talked culture very early on and how it's a cultural thing and to get the human beings to feel reasonably good enough while you just hone in on one specific bottleneck at a time. And it comes down to then, I think, culture design. And that's kind of a weird thing for people because everyone thinks that culture needs to be this organic sort of thing otherwise, "no that's skin posts, that's sterile. That's not real culture." And all that.

But if you don't design something intentionally then, you can't expect to be able to control any of the results that it produces. So I think that maybe what's really important as a takeaway here is that you need to design the right culture in your organization that defends you against all of these problematic ways of thinking that people fall into based on all the things that we've been talking about, basically.

Corey Frank (24:31):

Well, Chris, in one of your earlier episodes, we talked about the culture at Connect and Sell, and that the goal, and I'm going to butcher the exact phrase you use, right. Is to "Fail spectacularly at least once a day." I think you had explained. So that's number one. And I'm looking at my notes from a brief conversation, Chris, that I had with you a couple of days ago. And you said a phrase that I liked that ties in Jake. What you're saying is, "To be ruthlessly curious." And I really liked that Chris, you see all these nuggets just come out, and you'd just of kind of capture them where you can. But I think that that culture of what you are doing with the SDR League and what folks like James Thornberg, the grandfather of kind of the... I would consider him kind of the Uncle Rico.

If you remember your Napoleon dynamite. Uncle Rico always had those video cameras. He's had the video cameras set up as he's practicing his throws, trying to go back to circa 1988. And so James, if you're listening, I think you really are the Uncle Rico of always adjusting, always trying to tweak your passing game, and certainly, what Ryan's doing there too. But that curiosity of what that self-introspection, and if you can have a culture like that. Chris had said even a connected cell where you're able to fail miserably at least once a day. I think that will engender itself into an organization where people will be more curious that their curiosity will trickle down internally in the business to externally to the type of people that you're talking to and your prospects.

Chris Beall (25:58):

Yeah. We want to fail enthusiastically. And you know, I've told everybody I've ever hired that one of the things that we do here, wherever here happened to be, is we are wrong enthusiastically every day. And that is a real key because we're wrong by nature. We're almost always wrong. I mean, how often do you look back and say, "Oh, I was so brilliant 20 years ago. I had it all." You look back, and you go, "I've learned a few things." So relative to some future state, you're always wrong. I'm going to jump on this culture thing for a minute. So, Corey, this is something that I actually think you can look at it at Youngblood Works in a totally new way, and you can change the whole world with this, and here's how cultural transformation is the hardest thing we can ever do. So I have the luxury of doing startups.

I mean, Connect and Sell wasn't a startup for me, but it's been really close. But before that, almost all startups, except a couple of stints at GXS, where I was a senior vice president of new product innovation. I predicted I would last 364 days there during the interview. I actually told the CEO he would fire me on day 364. And I was right to the day. I can tell you I was right to the day. So I don't do very well in those organizations. Not because I don't get anything done. I think I built five products for them, a great team. The late Suli Ding was leading this awesome team and built products. We bought a company forum, all these great things, but the fact is, I pushed continuously for cultural change, and in particular, for getting rid of parasites. And parasites are the big problem with companies are organisms full of value.

And there will be other organisms that want to feed on them while they're still alive. Those are called parasites. And when you're a company, they will try to feed on you. And they come in through your open mouth, just like many parasites do they come in through your food supply, which for companies is their new hires. And you'll get one of these parasites in. And I've mentioned on this podcast, how do you know they're a parasite. They say in the interview, "I'm a team player." As soon as somebody says, I'm a team player in an interview. Now I've let the cat out of the bag. And that, by the way, as a reference to the cat o' nine tails, not the kind of cat that people pet, but in any case, now let them know. So thank God the parasites will. They won't change their stripes too fast.

But when somebody is joining a company and their actual intention is to suck value out of it while appearing to provide value, which is a perfectly rational thing to do. But if that's their intention, they're going to say during the interview process, I'm a team player, and they're saying it because they're not. They're a parasite. And here's the thing about Youngblood Works. You can build a parasite-free organization, and you have, and you can grow it parasite-free forever. And therefore, you can offer as your primary product a different culture from the identification of the market through the delivery of the customer who is ready to buy now. So if you were to go to the psychology department, not just the business department, and don't just take future CEOs into finishing school, which you're doing now as cold callers and folks who have the ability to hold a conversation with an invisible stranger, the scariest thing in the world that we do.

But you tap another department, the psychology department. And bring in these therapist types who are highly curious and have a feel for people, and then teach them enough business that they can hold a product-free discovery call using Chris Bennet's techniques. I go talk to Chris Bennett, another good Canadian, just north of where I live in Port Townsend. He's just across the water there, bring his techniques in and productize that you will actually solve the cultural problem where it's causing the most pain. And that's the problem that needs to be solved. And that can be your ultimate product.

Corey Frank (29:36):

And that's the export. That is, in essence, the inherent product, not necessarily the demos. It's delivering people that may be recruited or move to these organizations that already have their foundational elements based off curiosity and non-parasitic behavior.

Jake Housdon (29:53):

It's like the- [crosstalk 00:29:54].

Chris Beall (29:54):

It's like a cultural graph. It's a graph, right?

Jake Housdon (29:55):

... yeah, it's the immune system.

Chris Beall (29:56):

Think of it as you're the branch that's going to be added to their tree because they got a lemon tree. It's producing these sour lemons. They need some apples. Youngblood Works could be the graph that produces the apples they need. So then they can figure out how to turn some of their lemon branches into, I don't know, at least plums or something.

Jake Housdon (30:13):

It reminds me of the gut. And the flora and fauna in the human gut and how important that is. And when that's out of whack, it affects everything else. And the ways that so far people seem to be able to improve it is by, like you said, grafting from a healthy gut, or it's actually pretty disgusting. They actually take feces and put them in pills, and get people to swallow them. And then that stuff gets down there and kind of helps to correct things. But hopefully, these discoverers, I don't know how to tie all that together, but.

Chris Beall (30:42):

That was a good one, Jake. So this is an adult program. So I can actually say you've now come up with the exact counter to, "Eat shit and die."

Corey Frank (30:49):

Or eat shit in fives. Either one.

Jake Housdon (30:55):

Eat shit and live.

Chris Beall (30:55):

Yeah. So don't go from curious to furious, eat shit and live.

Corey Frank (31:01):

I love it. I love it.

Jake Housdon (31:02):


Corey Frank (31:04):

Chris and Jake, right? I've we say this to all the guests, right? Is that I'm an active participant in these podcasts. I have this nefarious guy some sort of co-host or moderator, but my notes are full of all these. So I was just like from sure. A lot of our listeners take Chris's ideas and claim them as my own as frequently as I can. So that's just golden stuff, Chris. So, keeps me in the style I've become accustomed to, to be smarter than I am when I stand tall in front of my board, in front of my advisors, and say, "You know, I got an idea. I think we should probably focus on the psychology students that we have at the university here."

And I will be brilliant, and I will get all the accolades and contrary if they shoot that idea down, I say, well, that came from my Podcast partner, so. Either way, that's a benefit. So, and I will do the same with you, Jake shamelessly, with all the information that you've given us here today. So with that, we'd love to have you out again, Jake, as we continue to follow the SDR League and we'd go up the ranks. I don't know if there's a senior tour for guys like Chris and I. Like I said, something to think about versus the game is so fast for us old-timers here, but we just love what you're doing. And can't thank you enough for jumping on today with all the great information and any way we can support it here on the Market Dominance Guys, a score check. Chris and I would start every day with kind of looking at the box scores, certainly. And the highlights, we will certainly, keep that open for you.

Jake Housdon (32:31):

Love it. Well, someone's got to come in and teach us, the young folks, how it's done right. So I think we could definitely reach some sort of a cage match. Who'd be your choice opponent, Corey or Chris?

Chris Beall (32:44):


Corey Frank (32:44):

That's a good one.

Chris Beall (32:45):

You know who mine would be because he's so good. He's so cerebral. I always say if you can't do anything else, bringing a lawyer, bring an Anthony Antoniro.

Corey Frank (32:54):

There you go. Yeah. I'd fight Shatner. William Shatner. That's who I'd go head-to-head with, so.

Jake Housdon (33:00):

I love it.

Corey Frank (33:03):

Another could be- [crosstalk 00:33:04]

Chris Beall (33:04):

Shatner, he'd have a hundred percent close rate.

Corey Frank (33:06):


Chris Beall (33:08):

Nobody knows how that voice works, but whatever it is, I watched an ad for him. It's so funny you bring that up. You don't watch very much TV. But I'm stuck in a hotel here for a couple of days, months. I have nothing to learn in the hotel. Okay, I'm curious. So he's on with an ad for the system that cleans your sleeping apparatus, which then they come up with some name for it, your sleeping equipment, some euphemism for a C-PAP, which apparently sounds like a really bad thing. And he talks about that, and I'm listening to his voice just thinking, "You know, this guy should be cold calling."

Corey Frank (33:40):

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's why you got to go big, so.

Jake Housdon (33:45):

Well, we'll have to give him a shout and see if he wants to take you on, Corey.

Corey Frank (33:48):


Chris Beall (33:49):


Corey Frank (33:49):

When you do have the head-to-head Jake, when you go head-to-head with Ryan, do you play the Canadian anthem? And then you play the USA anthem. Is that how it goes? Just like it is with the baseball?

Jake Housdon (33:58):

Yeah. Well, I think it depends who's the champion and who's the challenge here in terms of which anthem goes first, but.

Corey Frank (34:03):

Okay. Thanks again, Jake, for what you do for our profession. It's admirable. We love it. And we'll support you anytime. So it's been another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the Sage of sales, Chris Beall. Until next time, have a great day.